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Ottoman Viper
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by BigBend66 on September 19, 2008
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Anyone here know anything of the venom toxicity of this species? I've done a lot of looking but not much in the way of venom can be found..
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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by theemojohnm on September 19, 2008
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Charles has probably pointed out the only general reference I'd trust. Still, I wish I knew of some other resources to back this up.
I will look.
Just so we are all clear (as common names cant be reliable all the time), everyone agrees here that the Ottoman Viper refers to Vipera xanthina correct?
Here is the link to the page you want:
http://www.toxinology.com/fusebox.cfm?fuseaction=main.snakes.display&id=SN0066
Hope this helps.
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by theemojohnm on September 20, 2008
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Actually, after looking through toxinology.com, as I haven’t visited in a while, just out of curiosity, I looked up several of the species in the room next to the room I'm in.
Apparently, they have Agkistrodon c. contortrix, listed as "more dangerous" than Sistrurus c. catenatus. From what I've researched, and seen from other sources, this is NOT true at all.
Perhaps they are referring to how much venom is actually injected in a given bite, or take in to consideration that many defensive Massasauga bites are dry bites.
???
Obviously, an adult Massy cannot inject a terribly lethal amount of venom. But, I feel this should be taken EQUALLY if not MORE seriously than a northern copper bite.
According to some reports, massy venom is quite toxic drop for drop, even when compared to Timber venom, or EDB venom. It seems that the little amount of venom the Massasauga's are able to inject, plus the fact that many defensive bites tend to be mild envenomations or dry bites may lead to this rating.
I honestly did not read over much of the venom composition of the venom types, as they break things down fairly accurately at toxinology.com.
Still this makes me wonder....
Now I REALLY wish I had another opinion other than this site. Still, they give some fairly detailed info based on studies of the venom composition of both species.
I have used this site MANY time before, and it has been the ones I've trusted for a while now, as all info seems to check out with other sources I've used.
Who all uses this site, and what do you think of the listings based on the Sistrurus c. catenatus vs. Agkistrodon c. contortrix equation.
Try the search. My limited medical knowledge might be leading me to believe differently, but still…
Just curious.
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by Cro on September 20, 2008
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John, on the Sistrurus c. catenatus vs. Agkistrodon c. contortrix, I think that they probably are taking the high percentage of dry bites, and the small venom yield into consideration.
The average Copperhead bite will yield two or three times as much venom that a Massasauga bite will, and is far less likely to produce a dry bite.
The Toxonology Site rates snakes on a "Dangerousness" Index, and that can be very "subjective."
One of the site members here has a HUGE Dusky Pygmy Rattlesnake, and the head size and venom gland size is so large, that I belive that snake could deliver ten times the volume of venom in a bite that a average size Pygmy Rattlesnake could. Because of that, I would rate the "potential" of that snake much higher on the Dangerousness Index than a Copperhead bite.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by theemojohnm on September 20, 2008
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Thats pretty much what I figured.
I am aware that the Dangerousness scale used there cant really be relied on too much, as many rhings contribute to the "dangers" regrading bites from any particular species. There are just soo many variables.
I allways wished that the dangerousness scale used there had a key. At least a general guideline pertaing to to each of the ratings (colors on that scale) would be nice.
I was fairly surprised to see that the Massy "danger level" was not much higher than that of a common garter snake.
I know that garters produce some sort of neurotoxin in their saliva, but that it is not dangerous to people. But, can this really be considered venom?
How ON EARTH can the saliva of a common garter snake be compared to ANY rattlesnake venom, regardless of sive, venom yeild, or bite statistics???!!!
LOL. Sorry for the ramble.
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by puffadder7 on September 20, 2008
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that is pretty ridiculous, all i know is it takes about thirty five milligrams of massy venom to kill a person, arin
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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by Cro on September 20, 2008
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Ok, here we go again.
Dr. Bryan Greig Fry (venomdoc.com) who is a site member here did much of the research.
A new study has unexpectedly discovered three-finger toxins in a subspecies of the Massasauga Rattlesnake, as well as evidence for a novel toxin genes resulting from gene fusion.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071219202946.htm
Also:
"Venom Hunt Finds 'Harmless' Snakes A Potential Danger"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/12/031216075937.htm
That Garter snake lacks the mechanism to deliver that venom. If you were to put it into a syrynge, and inject it into tissue, the venom would cause much more of a reaction.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by theemojohnm on September 20, 2008
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John,
That Science Daily site you recomend seems to be pretty nifty. =)
Thanks for the link. I actually remeber being five or six and wondering after wrestling around with a grater in the grass and getting chomped quite a few times, and wondering why that slight "tingling" occurs in garters when not in other species.
LOL.. What would be termed as a "surface envenomation" perhaps?
Much the same debate allways seems to go on in regards to the Heterodon genus.
Although, doesnt enlarged rear teeth present an at least somewhat more potential risk?
I have actually been quite interested in alot of the Colubrid saliva toxicity info comming out recently.
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by Cro on September 20, 2008
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John, the Science Daily site is awesome. I have told folks here about it from time to time.
If you do a search there, it defaults to "in the last 6 months." You should modify the search to "in the last 10 years," and it will bring up all kinds of wonderfull articles.
The great thing about it is that it can find articles from hundreds of obscure sources that you would never find on your own.
I keep it on my home page and view it every day.
As far as the venom in Heterodon, somewhere on this site is a thread about how I was envenomated by a large melanistic Hognosed Snake, and how the "toad popper" tooth punctured my thumb.
It bit just the right way to ingulf my thumb, and produce a wicked bite. The wound bled, and bled, and was extremely painfull. The swelling, pain, and damage to tissue was equivelent to the bite from a medium sized Copperhead Snake.
Dr. Bryan Fry read my description about the bite, and commented that all of what happened was indeed from envenomation.
I know it was a very unpleasent week for me, and several unplesent months of little use from that thumb, with pain and skin slothing from the wound afterword. Eventually, it healed.
It has been my experience that melanistic Hognosed Snakes are the ones that are more abpt to bite. Over the years I have been bitten several times by hognosed snakes, and other "non-biting" snakes like Indigo Snakes, LOL.
Best Regards John Z
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