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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by theemojohnm on September 20, 2008
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John,
Funny, you were bitten by a "safe" snake... LOL. (According to the folks at toxinology.com)
My sympathy, as I bet it was unpleasant, but that is a very interesting account. For the longest time, even after reading some of the toxinology reports, I did not accept the fact that hogies were "venomous".
In the past 6 months or so changed mind, and your account furthers the need for further study in MANY Colubrid studies in my opinion.
I sincerely feel that the Nerodia genus needs to be further investigated. Toxinology.com has Nerodia s. sipedon listed as NON-VENOMOUS, but will list common garters as venomous.
I know there is supporting evidence in the case of common garters being mildly neurotoxin, and the Nerodia bites are probably more bacterial related.
Still, with their nasty anti-coagulant properties and local effects, it seems perhaps that more should be investigated regarding the saliva of Nerodia. I have suffered some NASTY local effects from N. s. sipedon bites.
What is REALLY shocking to me, is that, Toxinology.com has the common garter ranked "more dangerous" on the index than the hognose.
Maybe with an effective delivery system, garters have the POTENTIAL to cause more in depth damage.
But, if the folks there truly take all the factors into consideration, don’t you think that hognose snakes DO have more potential to cause harm, even IF garters have a more toxic component to their "venom", the hoggies have to be more potentially "dangerous" as far as a local envenomation with their enlarged, specialized teeth.
Back to the S. catenatus vs. A. contortrix equation. If toxinology.com takes in to account the percentage of dry bite statistics, potential venom yeild per bite, and toxicity, why are common garters listed as "more dangerous" ?
Obviously, there is much to be researched regarding this. But I'm sure you, having suffered a seemingly effective envenomation from Heterodon, you have to agree that, in your opinion, Heterodon
has to be more POTENTIALLY “dangerous” than common garters?
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by Cro on September 22, 2008
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John, several things come to mind about your questions.
As far as the dangerousness of Garter Snakes, they have a large range and are very common. Perhaps the folks at Toxonology take that into account.
And some of the work on that sight might just be wrong. A lot of the dangerousness index is probably based on a fairly small number of recorded bites. Hundreds of folks have been bitten by Copperheads, so there is a large database for the researchers to use in trying to decide just how dangerous a snake it. In the case of a Massasauga Rattlesnake bite, there are probably only a few cases each year, and thus not much data to go on.
We have no idea just how up to date they are at that site. From the work of Dr. Fry, many "harmless" snakes and lizards have the glands that can produce venoms. Also, some snakes completely lack those glands.
They just lack the mechanisms to get that venom deep into tissues. It probably serves those animals well to just have venom in the silava, where it will enter the tiny tooth wounds, and do its job in immobilizing the insects, lizards, and frogs that these animals feed on.
It could be years before a comprehensive study is done on the makeup of venoms in "harmless" snakes and lizards. Dr. Fry gave folks a great starting point, however, I doubt that he will make that his life's work.
It might be years before new data is used to update sites like Toxocology.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by Crotalusssp on September 23, 2008
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John, Have all the Heterodon ssp. been shown to have toxic proteins in their saliva? I realize the toxin affects amphibians primarily. I come across H. sinus quite frequently and I have been curious as to whether or not if I was bitten to expect reactions like others have had with Western species. I have never even had one strike at me. They really are reluctant to bite. Of course I do not handle roughly or do anything to stupid when handling them. LOL
Charles
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RE: Ottoman Viper
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by Cro on September 23, 2008
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Charles, from what I have read on Dr. Fry's site, he is saying that all of the harmless snakes in North America have the ability to produce venoms, with the Exceptions of snakes that have developed a different way to kill prey (Ratsnakes that have developed constricting).
He has not tested all of the North American Heterodon as far as subspecies yet, however, if one of them has venom, they probably all do. He has also stated that the well known "toad popper" modified teeth found in hognosed snakes are not for popping toads, but for envenomating, and he compares them to fangs.
They sure worked like a fang in the case of my bite.
You can read more about this on his forum:
http://www.venomdoc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1705&highlight=
Best Regards John Z
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