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black snake/copperhead hybrids???
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by newguy on October 2, 2008
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One of my Dads friends was cleaning out his camper or something to that effect and was bitten on the ankle by a black rat snake( pretty common here in Ohio).His ankle and leg supposedly swelled so bad that his pant leg had to be cut off to relieve the pressure.As this was way before I came along I never saw it.There is though a pretty persistant claim among the older(said respectfully)folks here that black snakes and copperheads interbreed.Is there any truth to this?Can a non-venomous and venomous snake interbreed?I don't think so but I'm new at this and am really ignorant of such things.If not why did his leg swell so bad? Thank you also to the people that took the time to answer my other posts.
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RE: black snake/copperhead hybrids???
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by Crotalusssp on October 2, 2008
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There is no interbreeding of this kind. Might be mistaken identity or just a bad reaction for some other reason.
Charles
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RE: black snake/copperhead hybrids???
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by Buzztail1 on October 2, 2008
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I once made a housecall in 1980 to a farm in the mountains of Virginia.
The folks that lived at the farm were adamant that Copperheads and "Black Snakes" had mated and there were lots of venomous Ringnecked Snakes around. We took over twenty snakes and relocated them down the road.
We found Eastern Milk Snakes, Black Racers, Black Rat Snakes, and Northern Ringneck Snakes but not one Copperhead.
Two things come to mind in the case you describe. There might have also been a Copperhead that did bite but only the Black Rat Snake was seen and therefore blamed. The other is that a tooth broke off in the bite (from the Black Rat Snake) and was deep enough (possible on an ankle bite) to irritate the bone.
Just some thoughts.
To date, there has been no evidence of any venomous snake ever being able to interbreed with any nonvenomous snake.
R/
Karl
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RE: black snake/copperhead hybrids???
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by Cro on October 2, 2008
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Another possibility would be that the guy was bitten by something like a black widow spider or stung by a wasp or scorpion while cleaning out the trailer. Both of those could cause severe reactions.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: black snake/copperhead hybrids???
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by theemojohnm on October 2, 2008
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It is impossible for a black rat snake (egg layer) and a cooperhead (giving birth to live young), to interbreed.
It is VERY uncommon for snakes of different genera to do so, and even MORE of any impossibility that two snakes of even seperate taxonomic falimies could.
I too have heard the myth. It's just biologically impossible.
Take Care.
~John.
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RE: black snake/copperhead hybrids???
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by jared on October 2, 2008
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Long story short, they are not interbreeding. IMO they may be seeing some of the SPECTACULAR completely melanistic copperheads which would envenomate just like any other. These animals occur in small pockets in several east coast localities, just an thought,
Jared
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RE: black snake/copperhead hybrids???
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by pitbulllady on October 2, 2008
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I have seen some really dark Northern Copperheads, personally, and I can see how someone who didn't know much about snakes might mistake one for a harmless Black Rat Snake, albeit a rather stout, chunky specimen. As has been pointed out before, Rat Snakes and Copperheads do not even come into the world the same way; one lays eggs, and the other gives birth to live young. For them to mate and produce offspring would be rather like a dog mating successfully with a duckbilled platypus. If the snake that did the biting WAS a Rat Snake, then either the guy had a rare, unusual allergic reaction to some component of the snake's saliva(keep in mind that allergies to pet "hair" are actually allergies to pet DANDER, which is mostly dried saliva), or this is a case of "mind over matter"-the guy was convinced that he'd been bitten by a dangerous snake, and had a psychosomatic reaction.
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RE: black snake/copperhead hybrids???
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by Buzztail1 on October 2, 2008
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Please take care and be civil when explaining why various snakes "cannot" interbreed.
Many things that now interbreed were once thought incapable.
Crotalus adamanteus and Crotalus horridus were once thought incapable (proven incorrect).
Lampropeltis getula and Elaphe guttata were once thought incapable (proven incorrect).
Lampropeltis getula and Pituophis catenifer were once thought incapable (proven incorrect).
And I am sure that the list of recently interbred snakes is growing longer by the moment.
I will grant that each of these examples is live-bearing to live-bearing and egg-laying to egg-laying.
However, there is much left to be learned in the possibilities of breeding snakes.
R/
Karl
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RE: black snake/copperhead hybrids???
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by Cro on October 2, 2008
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Good point Karl.
Perhaps what is needed is a new scientific definition of what makes a "Species."
The old definition was " a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring."
While many hybrids have been produced, such as the Eastern Diamondbacked Rattlesnake crossed with the Canebrake Rattlesnake, to produce the "Batwing" and the Gaboon Viper crossed with the Rhino Viper, to produce the "Gambino," I wonder just how many of those hybrids will satisfy the second part of the Species Axiom that they have to be able to produce fertile offspring ?
If these hybrids breed true, and do not produce infertile "mules," then the definition of Species needs a bit of work.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: black snake/copperhead hybrids???
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by jared on October 2, 2008
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I dont think out of any of the hybrids an egg layer has ever been crossed to a live bearer to produce any viable young. Also F2 hybrid litters have a bad tendency to throw sterile babies, from what i understand batwings have had a problem with that. Gabinos, or any of the VARIOUS bitis hybrids seem to be much more likely to produce the F2 animals than some of the others. Again If I am wrong someone please correct me. Also, there are several copperheads populations that are melanistic (black)not dark brown, beige or reduced pattern, black as black snakes or racers. Which if some none herper recieved an envenomation from would persistantly deny that any copperhead shown would be the culprit(just hypothetically). Again, just an idea, feel free to share more
Jared
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