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RE: Proof a venomoid can become venomous again!
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by atwageman on October 15, 2008
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Watched the video and I stick to my guns on this. Venomoids can't be trusted and it's cruel. IF YOU CAN'T TAKE THE HEAT, STAY OUT THE KITCHEN.
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RE: Proof a venomoid can become venomous again!
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by Rob_Carmichael on October 15, 2008
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Absolutely, my only curiousity would be comparing vet led procedures versus non vet. Either way, the bottom line is that venomoids can be extremely dangerous and should never be free handled as KRZ demonstrate. The philosophical debate of whether its right or wrong is an entirely different debate....and one that gets very heated and rightfully so.
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RE: Proof a venomoid can become venomous again!
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by pitbulllady on October 15, 2008
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Glands that have been removed can, and do, sometimes come back.
There are many instances in humans who have had their tonsils ( a gland ) removed, and those tonsils grew back.
Salamanders can loose a leg or tail, and generate a new one.
Lizards can loose a tail, and grow a new one.
"Humans have lost fingers, and generated new ones. This has especially happened in children, where the growth factors were still working. Adults can not usually do that.
The body of any animal has an "instruction set" built in, that is designed for repair. Just because a vet can remove a complete venom gland, does not mean that that gland can not grow back. What is needed is triggering the instruction set that grew that gland in the first place.
In the example of the castration mentioned above, even that might be reversed, if the growth factors in the body that first created the organ, were somehow turned on again.
Best Regards John Z"
John, do you have further documentation of children regenerating lost fingers, hands, etc? This is NOT that same, mind you, as a finger being reattached, and while there have been recent medical advances towards that goal, I'm not aware of any complete human limb/digit regeneration that occurs naturally. I've known many people who lost fingers, hands, feet, eyes, etc., as children, and never "regenerated" any of these parts. I've never known a male animal that was castrated to regenerate a testicle, either, nor a female(animal or human)who regenerated an ovary once she's undergone a complete ovo-hysterectomy. Testicles and ovaries are glands, too. My own doctor discussed the topic of "tonsil regeneration" with me once, and said that in the case of total tonsilectomy there is NO medical proof of tonsils regenerating. Tonsils are part of the lymph system, and other lymph glands can take over for their function when they're removed, but cases of "regeneration" are really cases where part of the tonsil was left behind. I'd be really interested in medical documentation of a gland or other human body part that has been completely removed actually regenerating.
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RE: Proof a venomoid can become venomous again!
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by Cro on October 15, 2008
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Sharon, there is a lot of new research in these fields. What is being found, is that a micro-current of electricity can help stimulate regeneration and healing. It is also being found that the same micro-current can speed the repair of broken bones. Stim cells are being used to grow organs in lab dishes. If a replacement organ can be grown in a lab, then it sure could be re-grown by a animal, if you turn on the right switches.
You can read about bio-electricity being used to regenerate organs in frogs at:
http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:HTTr2pZzvE8J:www.vef.hr/vetarhiv/papers/2006-76-7-24.pdf+regeneration+of+testicles+after+castration&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
As far as animals re-generating testicles following castration, it is rare, but we find one common example:
http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:HTTr2pZzvE8J:www.vef.hr/vetarhiv/papers/2006-76-7-24.pdf+regeneration+of+testicles+after+castration&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
"The birds were castrated at 8 or 12 weeks of age. The age of castration up to 12 weeks showed complete testicular regeneration while when castration was performed at 8 weeks of age testicular regeneration reached 25%."
That involved pheasants. We should remember though that birds and reptiles are closly related. If birds can regenerate one type of gland, what is to say that a snake can not regenerate a venom gland ?
Check out this article that suggests that all animals have the repair map, if it can be turned on:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061119114814.htm
And as far as humans re-growing fingers, go to Google and search "regeneration of human fingers," and you will find hundreds of references of humans who have regrown parts of missing fingers. Perhaps not whole fingers or limbs at this stage, but the ability to do that is in a not too distant future. I just do not have the time to sort through them for you.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Proof a venomoid can become venomous again!
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by FLherp on October 15, 2008
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John,
In the case of castration (caponizing) of fowl, these are internal organs and the operation may not have been a complete success. If you have ever participated in the caponizing of fowl, you might have a better understanding of why it is not 100% effective. "Slips" occur due to location of the testes, internal and close to the spine - some tissue may be left and may continue to grow. As fowl are caponized quite young, this will allow for further development of the remaining tissue. It takes a great deal of practice and deft hand to perform this procedure, and a great deal more to do it well. Please note that caponizing is usually not performed with the benefit of anesthetic either, the animal is likely to move during the procedure, adding to the likelihood of a slip.
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RE: Proof a venomoid can become venomous again!
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by Cro on October 15, 2008
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Jeffrey, I am familiar with the "foul" way that the foul are treated, LOL.
The fact is though, that animals and plants contain a "blueprint" that tells them how to develop. After the animal is grown, the ability to regenerate parts seems to often be lost.
However, some animals have little problem using that blueprint to repair lost parts, like the lost tails and limbs of many salamanders and lizards. The more complex the organ or limb, the more difficult it will probably be for the animal to regenerate it. Unless, the growth factors that the animal had when it was still young and growing are turned back on again.
If we can take baby chickens in a lab, and cut off a wing, and have those chickens grow a whole new wing, then the possibility to do that someday with humans or other animals is there. We just need to learn how to turn on the switches that are needed, and need to supply the animal with the building blocks that are needed to create the organ or limb.
Resently, researchers have found that many cells in the body can differentiate into stem cells when given the right stimulus. This means that there is the "potential" for an organism to regenerate any organ.
Also, you know that every organ in your body has allready been replaced. All of the cells in a human heart have been replaced thousands of times, so, technically, the heart that folks have now is not the one they were born with. It was just not done all at once. The same thing goes for all of the other organs and glands
Many humans know that if they have something like a wart, and they cut it off, that it often will grow back. Is this due to some wort cells being left at the site, or is this due to the conditions that produced the wort, and the blueprint for a wort, still being present ?
To me, the idea that a snake can replace a lost venom gland is not far fetched. It is a healing process, that the body uses to repair an injury.
If we Google "regenerate tonsils" you will find thousands of cases of this happening. Most state that it is due to incomplete removal by the surgeon of all of the tonsil tissue. What is to say that a vet removing a venom gland will completely remove all of the tens of millions of cells that make up a venom gland in a venomous snake ?
Just how many free cells are needed to cause re-growth ?
The idea that a venomoid snake can become venomous again would seem very possible, no matter how completly the vet or hack did the job.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Proof a venomoid can become venomous again!
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by CharlieO on October 16, 2008
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Interesting video, but I think I would be very circumspect about posting this as advertised...
Please note I am NOT disputing the possibility of regeneration, but (as noted in part by Rob C.) the video offers nothing (and claims nothing) in the way of proof that any regeneration occurred among the sample.
There is no evidence presented that the snakes were, in fact, venom-free at any point (before or after surgery). As Rob noted, there is no information provided regarding the source(s) of the sample. I would also question if a sample of three specimens, even if from three different, qualified sources, would be sufficient to provide statistically valid data (it may be; I don't know the science of venom research, someone correct me if I'm wrong).
Obviously the snakes shown *are* able to produce and deliver venom (I will assume that the toxicoloy proved out); unfortunately, from this video, we cannot adequately state that regeneration occurred.
Please note that I am NOT casting aspersion on the possibility of regeneration (a concept we are just beginning to comprehend)in higher animals, nor am I shooting arrows at the folks at KRZ. I am only noting that the video does not (in my view)provide enough evidence to be considered proof of anything (including botched surgery).
Just my .02 (worth .001 due to market conditions)
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RE: Proof a venomoid can become venomous again!
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by GaryOrner on October 16, 2008
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The info I got is that KRZ vet looked over said snakes and there is signs of the surgery. We do not know who did the surgery.
Funny thing about it though is all the questions that are forming for snakes that have had a surgery done and are now venomous. But people do not dig as deep when said snake is said to had the surgery done by a vet.
What comes out of this video to me is Venomoids are not as safe as some say. venomoids take the known factor out of the venmous snake. that alone is dangerous.
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RE: Proof a venomoid can become venomous again!
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by JHarrison on October 16, 2008
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This was a demo of three known venomoids (Checked for surgery by our vet. and by Jim )that were given to us. It was only to show that you can never be sure if the job was done right unless a vet will pit tag the animal and then have records that follow the animal from owner to owner. This is not the case.
As far as a scientific project this was just for general info. More animals and controls (Like knowing which vet did the surgery would be needed) Don't try to read to much into this from a science stand point. Just be aware that all venomous or venomoid animals should be treated as if they can give venom or cause an infection.
Kristen
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RE: Proof a venomoid can become venomous again!
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by FLVenom911 on October 16, 2008
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Removal of glands and associated ducts and cauterization would probably be less likely to result in the ability to produce venom in significant quantities than a simple duct ligation. Who performed the surgery? What quantity of venom was produced on extraction? Was it a clinically significant quantity? Was it examined using electrophoresis or ELISA to determine composition? There are probably a few others that I will think of later.
All of these questions aside, regardless of surgery, these animals should be treated as what they are - venomous snakes. Treating them otherwise is irresponsible.
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