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RE: to all the experts
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by theemojohnm on April 13, 2009
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Arin, exactly what is "more toxic' ? What are you basing this on? So maybe cape venom is more "effective" when talking about the effects of human evenomations. You are relying only on statistics and LD50's. As Jamie posted, Forest cobras have been observed as rather "shy" in the wild.
Perhaps there are more cape bite reports, and known serious envenomations because the cape's are naturally more "bold"?
As Karl stated earlier, the only individual truly qualified to shed light on this topic is Dr. Fry. I actually thought of messaging him earlier, but thought this topic was pretty much "dead" from lack of specifics.
A detailed venom analysis from Dr, Fry (and personal opinion and comparison) is priceless, but still will not answer this question.
"What is your favorite color?" You will get millions of different answers to that question depending on how the individual asked interprets it, and their individual opinion.
Take the Sydney funnel-web spider (I am NO spider expert). There are reports that your common house cat can bat these things around with no trouble (much like any other bug), yet, human envenomations can be quite nasty.
There is NO answer to this question. And to state that the cape cobra is "more toxic" than anything is sketchy at best. There are individual factors at work here, and many of them. What ones count are the ones that do the most damage to humans the fastest, and the most routinely. Still, EVERY bite will be different.
It remains a very rough question with NO solid answer, no matter how you want to look at it.
Take Care,
-John Mendrola.
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RE: to all the experts
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by najasuphan on April 13, 2009
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Even if you're going off of the LD50 charts, they say that the Forest Cobra is more toxic. On the intravenous and intraperitoneal charts the Forest Cobra has a lower LD50 than the Cape. On the subcutaneous chart Naja melanoleuca is not on there but Naja naja is, and it is rated hotter than the Cape. On the intravenous chart Naja melanoleuca is higher than Naja naja so it would stand to reason that Naja nivea would still be under Naja melanoleuca regardless. That's if you are going off of the LD50 charts solely. If you go off other references, such as the "Snakes of Southern Africa" book among others, they say the Cape is more toxic.
So it all really boils down to what information you want to believe is accurate; anecdotal mentions in books or the LD50 charts. As I said before, if you believe LD50 charts, then Naja melanoleuca is more toxic, but if you believe what is written in most of the books/field guides, then Naja nivea is more toxic. I'll admit, I have no idea. I haven't done the research on their venom to figure it out and all of the information from one source contradicts the evidence from other sources.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just pointing out that the sources of information contradict each other and make this an impossible question to answer. This is barring all of the situational factors that would also effect an envenomation and going for specifically which is more toxic to humans.
So basically, the only answer to this question is "it depends." It depends on which source(s) you believe.
-Jamie
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RE: to all the experts
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by puffadder7 on April 13, 2009
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mabye we need bryan fry to update his site, because i think some of the ld50's are wrong, i am not being hypocritical, becuase it says a common cobras venom is more toxic than a cape just does not make sense to me, but then you can go on bill haast's website and it says cape cobra venoma in the most toxic, so all this is starting to confuse me, no hard feelings, arin
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RE: to all the experts
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by toddg on April 13, 2009
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I believe niveas are the most toxic of the AFRICAN najas. Not the most toxic of ALL the najas.
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RE: to all the experts
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by AquaHerp on April 13, 2009
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Once again. It all depends upon the intent of the question. If it is because someone wants to know the better snake to keep because of its toxicity, then the point is moot. I work a room full of them daily, and they are enough to keep my attention. Little monkey-tailed mamba wanna-bes! The better question would be "what antivenom is best"? "Is there a polyvalent that allows me to keep other species or is the snake covered only by a monovalent"? As in say a pallida over an oxiana.
If the intent of the question is simply "which snake is more toxic", or "how toxic is it in general"? Then again, the door is open for even more questions. Toxic to you as a human, or as a mouse (LD50)? Venom yeild? IV, SQ, IP or IM?
Strait out, based on an LD50s the forest cobra stands at about 6.25 mg/kg intravenous or 12 mg/kg intraperotoneal.
Given that LD50s are the best that we can do, unless someone wants to volunteer, it will never be a great system.
DH
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