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To cottonmouth
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by tj on May 25, 2003
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The only place they are found is in Dismal Swamp? Can you back that statement up? I know of a few people who have seen populations (within a year) in Newport News and Hampton, not to mention the state has identified populations in Va Beach, and a few other areas as well.
But just to let you know, since I can back up my statements, here's a link from the State.
http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/VHS/snakes_of_virginia.htm
If that's not good enough for you, I have more.
Now tell me you know more about species locations and populations than the State does, or at least provide some sort of evidence to your claims. Just because you haven't seen any doesn't mean they don't occur, it just means you don't know where to look.
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wrong link....here's another
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by tj on May 25, 2003
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www.dgif.state.va.us/wildlife/publications/ 030013_1_Canebrake.pdf
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RE: To cottonmouth
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by cottonmouth on May 25, 2003
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the link shows that TIMBERS (canebrakes ) have been found in these locations, but once again, I don't consider them as the same as the Game and Fish dept does.
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RE: canebrakes
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by cottonmouth on May 25, 2003
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I am sure that there are a few,but not enough to claim a definate line. I know that they have been found in the Suffolk area, but I also know someone who has been releasing several broods a yr and that might explain some of it. he has been buying pairs at the Hamburg show for yrs and breeds them, for the sole purpose of release, which I think is super good. JLindsay
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RE: canebrakes
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Anonymous post on May 25, 2003
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A friend of mine has a 'timber' from the mountains in north georgia.
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OK OK OK I'm in
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by jared on May 26, 2003
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Canes do occur in VA, as well as timbers in NC (if you differentiate between the two, otherwise as I said, you can lump Homo Sapiens and Chimps in the same category as well, since we are closer to them than they are to other primates) Va Cane distribution is as follows
Suffolk
Hampton
Va Beach
NNEws
Yorktown
Capron and surrounding areas
From my experience, this is where I have seen canes. In NC the range breaks up, with Canes ranging up all the way into the uwharries and furthur north. For Traditional "timber" phase animals you would need to go at least to Hanging rock state park and further west, once your past cherokee they are almost all black phase, from what I have seen. I hope it helps, and yes I think more research is needed (Not relying on DNA evidence as the sole means) to differentiate between pops. Heck, the nebraska and Iowa horridus are the worst, they look just like canes but have timber habitat, I wonder what there venom complex is like out there??? Hope it helps,
Jared
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RE: canebrakes
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by duck on May 27, 2003
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CHANCE, you are right that horridus is one species but correct name for timber is crotalus horridus horridus and for canebrakes crotalus horridus atricaudatus and also the timber rattlers seem to have the central stipe and the canebrake does not
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RE: canebrakes
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by Chance on May 27, 2003
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Duck, according to the most recent taxonomic studies, the "canebrake subspecies" is no longer recognized. Of course there are people who maintain that this in untrue, but I'll stay with what the taxonomists who study this say until they say otherwise. Oh, and by the way, it's the "canebrakes" that have the vertebral stripe and the timbers that do not.
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RE: canebrakes
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by BGF on May 28, 2003
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Hi all
This canebreak/timber controversy is a perfect example of historical problems with taxonomy. Far too much importance has been placed on colour and pattern. It actually takes remarkably little genetic difference to accomplish a change in one, the other, or both. Does C. horridus look different across its range? Yes It it continous and clinal? Yes Is there a sharp or appreciable difference in the genetics? No Is it all one species with no subspecies across the range? Yes.
Of course, the situation can easily go the other way. What we are seeing now is a big clean up of taxonomy. So many historical assumptions and oversights has created a total cluster f*k.
For example, whatever wasn't an elapid or viper was a colubrid. Elaphe became a dumping ground for anything that superficially resembed a ratsnake. This of course extended to various ratsnake species being dumping grounds for snakes that upon close scruiteny were so not the same snake.
So we ended up with a situation where things as diverse as Leioheterodon, Psammophis, Rhabdophis and Dispholidus are all 'colubrids' . This is evee though Leioheterodon (and all other Madagascar 'colubrids') and Psammophis are actually elapids, if a choice had to be made between elapids and colubrids. They are sister group to each other, then sister group to Atractaspidae, then sister group to Elapidae, then and only then do you run into other 'colubrids'.. However there are several true families there. Enhydris and Cerberus for example are nowhere near at all to the Colubrinae such as Elaphe. Rhabdophis is distinct from Colubridae as well.
So the Colubridae as a family does not exist. There are several true families in there that are in some case more genetically distinct from each other than from an elapid.
If you thought the mess at the family level was impressive, keep extending it to genus level, fractioning genera like Elaphe into the true genetic diversity. The American Elaphe are more like Pituophis and Lampropeltis then they are to the Asian Elaphe. Same sort of situation is going on with the species.
We have historically placed far far too much importance on pattern and colour. Nature however is much more clever than that. The cleverness lies in its inherent simplicity. With every clutch, there is variation. Variation that seems significant but is actually coded for by far little genetic information than we really though. So with minimal genetic changes you can have a pretty wide range of patterns and colours.
What this does is gaurantee that in every clutch, at least one of the snakes has the right combination for a particular environment. So, for example, in each clutch some snakes are lighter or darker than others. The darker snakes overheat easily but also heat up easily. SO, they can survive just a little further north than the others. Over time, the snakes could extend a long way and get entirely black. Not difficult to do at all. Also, from external appearances, black = black. Lets say there are two southern snakes, totally different lines but in same genus. They both over time extend North. Same basic pressures. Over time they may occupy similar habitats (give or take a bit) and both be black at similar latitudes (assuming same general size and build). Oila. Two different species. One black snake.
This is all greatly simplified of course but it should illustrate the general point. Why is alll this coming out? Because molecular biology and computing have finally met in a very useable way. Time to clean house.
Cheers
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne.
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