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Out there waiting to strike your collection
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by Phobos on April 29, 2010
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A series of emails from another hot herper seeking help....Hope you all take action before this happens to you.
1)
I am totally baffled. I don't want to get long winded, as I know your time is precious. I am at a brick wall however, with trying to figure out why I am loosing so many specimens from my collection. In the last 3 days, I have lost the following: 2 Monocle Cobras, 1 Black Pak Cobra, 2 Puff Adders, 1 pair of my two breeding pair of banded Gilas, and about 4 different species of Rattlers that I own. I fed all of my collection on Saturday 4-24-10. All of the feeders were frozen thawed from Rodent Pro. Within the last 3 days I have lost all of these animals, they are dropping like flies. I am absolutely beside myself. I consulted with my vet, and he is baffled as well. All specimens were healthy adults, and great feeders. I have removed all of my surviving specimens from there enclosures, and placed in rubbermaid bins on quarantine bedding. I have also completely cleaned out all of my enclosures, and cleaned with bleach solution. I just don't understand what could have happened, and in such a short period of time. I am very anal with cleaning, and make sure everything is sterile and clean. I have lost animals over the years like anyone in the hobby for various reasons, but never at a rate like this. Any ideas, or suggestions on what to do. I have been in the hobby for about 20 years, and keeping venomous for about 8 years now, and I just don't know what to do. I don't know if it is viral, or a parasite or what. Any help from who I consider to be one of the most knowledgeable in the hobby would be greatly appreciated.
2)
Hi Al,
Thanks again for the info. Just wanted to give you a quick update, and you were right on the money. My vet did a necropsy on one of the Gila's and one of the Monocle Cobras and found the OPV virus present in the respiratory tract of both animals. The lungs were also completely inflamed and one lung on the monocle was full of puss. He told me that he thought there was a chance that it could have been OPV before the necropsy, but wasn't 100% because of the lack of clinical signs. I have not lost anything else since, and hope that the virus was isolated to those animals, but I will have to wait and see. Thanks again for your help. I am not getting any new specimens for awhile till I see how things go.
3)My reply to #2
Not good news but at least you know the cause. OPV usually 'burn's through a collection and dies off as long as you're anal about cleaning and vector control.
1) Anything that goes in with the animal gets tossed out in trash or gets cleaned & sterilized before it's used on any other cage or animal. Hooks, water bowls, hides, tubs etc...
2) Use gloves if working in a cage or snake, toss them when done. Cover workspace with disposable covers, toss them after a snake touched it's surface. Clean floors & outsides of cages as in step 1
3) If food is not consumed it gets tossed and not given to another snake.
4) In addition to bleach use a hospital grade disinfectant using quartinary ammonia compounds to cover what the bleach does not kill.
5) Keep new specimens in quarantine for at least 60 days, away from your collection.
Good luck and sorry for your loss.
More information:
http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/college/departments/sacs/research/OphidianParamyxovirus.html
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RE: Out there waiting to strike your collection
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by Rob_Carmichael on April 29, 2010
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OPV is in a collection here too that looks like it stemmed from a group of Rhamphiosus purchased from a wholesaler/importer out west - won't name names on line but it's scary, scary stuff.
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RE: Out there waiting to strike your collection
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by Phobos on April 29, 2010
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As you know Rob OPV is the tip of the iceberg. At least you can kill that. I don't like to even think about some others that you almost can't kill once inside your facility.
Al
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RE: Out there waiting to strike your collection
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by Buzztail1 on April 29, 2010
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I am confused by your initial statement.
Are you suggesting that the OPV could have been passed into the collection through the frozen/thawed mice from RodentPro?
I really didn't know that it could be passed that way.
R/
Karl
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RE: Out there waiting to strike your collection
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by FSB on April 29, 2010
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Good advice Al. Like Karl, however, I'm not convinced that frozen rodents could be the source, if so that's news to me. I would ask what his most recent acquisition was prior to the outbreak. OPV was obvious from his first email - nothing else wipes out a healthy collection like that.
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RE: Out there waiting to strike your collection
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by Adamanteus70 on April 30, 2010
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OPV can be carried via clothing, shoes, used caging, hooks, and any other material that was housed or used in a collection that is positive for OPV. I know this for a fact because I am living it right now.
Very few people know what happened to my collection this past December. I was hesitant to say anything due to not knowing what actually happened. However, seeing this topic posted, I feel releaved to get it off my shoulders as it is a heavy burden to bear keeping it secret.
In December Game and Fish Commission brought a virus to me when they arrived for a inspection after they had been visiting other keepers in the region earlier in the day. Right now...the only hope I have is working with Dr. Elliot Jacobson. He is going to necropsy the deceased animals to find out what happened. It has only affected EDB's, and has killed all of them in my collection.
It has been the most tramatic experience in the history of animal keeping for me. 15 years of breeding projects are gone, wiped out while I stood by and watched the horrific event. One of a kind irreplaceable animals are gone, and their genetics may possibly be never seen again.
To sum it up, I am devastated. My most passionate animals I kept are gone. I have a sense of emptiness without my prized collection, which was the most complete collection of adamanteus variations in the world.
It can happen to anyone, and this time it happened to me. Regardless of your protocol on cleanliness. Mine was walked right through the front door into my home. Invisible to even the trained eye.
Paul
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RE: Out there waiting to strike your collection
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by Phobos on April 30, 2010
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Paul, Sorry for your loss. I too know your pain.
Karl: The mice are perfectly OK till the point they enter the snakes cage then are considered "contaminated waste". If I drop one to the floor for any reason, it's "contaminated waste" Just like working in a hospital OR, it's consided poor technique to let your "sterile" hands/gloves go below your waist. Infected snakes shed virus everywhere inside their enclosure, so anything that goes inside of one cage should never be transfered to another without disinfecting. Food items cannot be disinfected without being rendered toxic to the snake. Not to mention, not so tasty for the snake.
People say to me, "why don't you put you snakes on a nice background to photograph for the calendar". Because I would have to decontaminate the "set" in between each animal photographed. I don't have the time, nor do I want to take the risk of speading "something" from one animal to another in the process.
Pauls correct, keepers muct be careful what they wear and where they wear it. Contaminated clothing and shoes are a problem too. On a recent visit to an AZA Zoo, where I was invited by the keeper into a large walk in enclosure with a breeding pair of Bushmasters. I declined, and was kidded about being "chicken" till I told the keeper why I was not going in. My footware on my feet the night before was in my snake room and I considered them "dirty". Furthermore, I did not want to take something home on my shoes either. The kidding stopped, he know I was right.
Visitors as Paul mentioned are also a concern. After the Hamburg show I change cloths and was up before entering my snake rooms. Not only microscopic dangers exsist, the macroscopic ones too like good old mites, can and will hitch a ride home with you. Mites can and do carry diseases besides sucking your collection dry.
This is all food for thought, that seldom gets thought about. My infection control system is not perfect, I have screw-ups, lapses, brain-farts but I do the very best I can for my collection. The Australian Vet Society has a fantastic free PDF on infection control in reptile collections. I will put the PDF in the File Library for anyone who wishes to do more for their prized group of animals.
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RE: Out there waiting to strike your collection
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by Buzztail1 on April 30, 2010
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Paul, that is clearly devastating and I cannot imagine the pain you must feel. I am very sorry for your loss.
Al, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I too only ever offer a rodent to one animal. After that (if not taken), it is trash.
Thanks for all of the valuable information in this thread - it is a genuine concern for serious reptile keepers.
R/
Karl
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RE: Out there waiting to strike your collection
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by pictigaster1 on April 30, 2010
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I can see I am makeing to many mistakes.It is almost unfathomable to loose ones collection like that.Paul your loss is a loss to the herp world that may never be able to ever replace that is a hard fact.I am so sorry to hear that.What can you do about inspections like that and how many collections have been wiped out the same way I wonder..It says they can enter to inspect.Well should they be made to follow a certian protocal or not be allowed to enter.In Texas these guys are gun slingers and would not care one bit for such a loss.That is just crazy and it seems you should be able to have some recovery in a legal way.
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RE: Out there waiting to strike your collection
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by viandy on April 30, 2010
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One thing that jumps out at me is the Florida link in both of these accounts. I don't know for certain that the first case is in Florida but the U of Florida link makes me think so. Is this keeper a Florida resident, and were they recently inspected by the state ? If so, wow, a very damning fact, no matter how much state officials try to pass it off as coincidence.
Please let us know, either directly or through Al, your answers to the above. I understand your first thought that it must be the food, something they ate that killed them, but that may not be the case. It is striking that one collection had species specific deaths, while the other's was not selective at all, hitting exotics and natives.
Does it sound too strong that I mourn for your loss? I don't want to contemplate what that must be like, each day seeing a few more animals dead, realizing that every times you walk in to check them there will be more corpses to pull. An interesting and enjoyable hobby quickly becoming an aching void.
This should give all of us a wake up call for how we handle our collections. Quarantine isn't optional, sterilization isn't optional. Having a disinfectant footbath to step in at your room's entrance sounds like a must now, or (even better) a dedicated pair of snake proof boots that is only used with your collection. It seems like a lot of trouble since there hasn't been a problem before, right? Well, I know Paul did things right, chances are the other keeper did, or thought he did, or at least meant to. Don't want to spend the money for the extra supplies it will take? If it seems like a wasted effort and no problems develop, then you're doing it right. If suddenly the only supplies you need to buy are ziplocks to put dead snakes in you'll be spending less cash and getting anguish from a pursuit that should bring fulfillment. We all need to tighten our protocols so we don't have more horror stories like these.
Andrew Via
Virginia
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