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Cottonmouth bites
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by txhiker on July 22, 2003
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Why do there seem to be no articles on Cottonmouths or people who have them as reptiles in their collections?
I do not have snakes as pets so I am in ignorance. I have handled non-venomous snakes in the woods but that is the extent of my knowledge. I have been searching for information on the bites because there is the possibility that our weekly spring creek hiking group (with dogs) may come across one in the wilderness. I need to know what type of medical reactions one would have to a cottonmouth bite versus a dog that is bitten. Any information or links would be helpful.
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RE: Cottonmouth bites
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by jared on July 22, 2003
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Dont worry about the dogs unless they are really small or the cotton is really big. In my experience as an emergency vet tech we encountered snakebite here in NC all summer long, and generally most copper or cotton bites tend to be mild, as opposed to what happens when they get tagged by a rattler. In my experience, a cottonmouth bite is easy to distinguish from the searing PAIN in the wound. They cause lots of tissue loss and nerve damage in the immediate area. Pending the size of the cotton, a large one can deliver a fatal bite. As I said though dont worry about the dogs, they tend to fair much better than the people. In 2-3 days a dog seems completely healed, a year later I am still having trouble typing with my left hand. The most notable reaction is the swelling, in both species it is quite noticable. I cant really recommend anything other than seeking medical attention if it does happen, but be warned, the surgeons were itchin to remove fingers, which by the way work pretty good now despite the circumstances. I hope my little rant sheds a little light,
Jared
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RE: Cottonmouth bites
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by Snakeman1982 on July 22, 2003
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Hello Jennifer,
I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about cottonmouth bites from just hiking in the woods. Cottonmouths are not a tenth as aggressive as their reputations claim them to be plus they usually warn you when you get close to them. Even in cottonmouth country, chances are the cottonmouth will sense you coming before you see it. Then while you are walking you will see a flash of white a few feet in front of you. They'll sit there coiled up and threaten you with their cottonmouth. However, almost no matter how close you get to them they seldom strike, even when you handle them. If you see any snake and don't want a confrontation, just back up and walk the other way. Snakes in North America don't attack people nor can they out run you. Non-venomous snakes generally scurry away immediately at the sight of a human, while a venomous snake will stand its ground and wait for you to either leave or screw up by getting too close. The only reason why you should get bit by a venomous snake is if you try to capture or kill it. It is rare that someone just doesn't see a venomous snake and gets bit (I believe less than 5% of all snake bites in the U.S., not including the copperhead statistics). The main snake that people do step on a lot is the copperhead because it relies on its camoflauge to hide it and just stays still until you accidentally step on him. Copperhead bites are not concidered fatal to humans however and the bite isn't nearly as problematic as other venomous snakes of North America. Copperheads were however found to bite quicker than even rattlesnakes so picking one up isn't too smart. They seem to have a short temperment and strike a lot at a person after they have been disturbed.
I spent last weekend in southeastern Oklahoma doing some herping and bird watching and found 7 western cottonmouths (while wearing sandals of course), non of which I believe struck at me. I was trying out my new Midwest Gentle Giant tongs which I am not very good with yet. I lost the first two of the seven to nearby bushes before I got a decent chance to catch them, thanks to not being good with tongs. Caught the rest with a hook first and then tried the tongs after it was safely caught. I was trying them out before I used them on rattlesnakes for the southwest in two weeks. They should be great for that but don't seem to be good for me in swampy regions at night, I won't rate them yet though.
One of the world experts on cottonmouth aggression is Dr. Whit Gibbons who runs the University of Georgia's Savannah River Ecology Lab. He (along with M. E. Dorcas) just published a peer reviewed journal in Copeia in 2002 called "Defensive behavior of cottonmouths (Agkistrodon piscivorus) towards humans" This article along with other published writings and speeches of his state that cottonmouths are very calm and highly less likely to bite than others believe. In some of his studies he uses a fake hand connected to a pole and finds out how much irritation it takes before a wild cottonmouth actually bites it. I believe that all of his results state that cottonmouths are much less likely to bite than rattlesnakes or copperheads. I have caught tons of cottonmouths and the only cottonmouth I have ever been worried about biting me was a captive Florida Cottonmouth we had where I worked at in the Everglades. Changing his cage was a lot of fun. He didn't strike much but moved a lot and was very high strung.
If by dumb luck you do get bitten by a cottonmouth it can be bad. Their venom is potent and can cause some damaging necrosis. It is considered to be very rarely fatal and isn't near as damaging as most rattlesnake bites. If you have a dog that gets bit I am not sure what a vet would be able to do. Maybe Jared or someone else can emphasize more on that but I could just about guarantee that they wouldn't use anti-venom for it because of the shortage plus the fact that it might not be tested on many animals. Not much reason to pay big bucks if you aren't going to get anti-venom because I don't believe much else works to stop the progression of hemotoxic venom. Also not sure you would spend the incredible amount of money for anti-venom on your dog.
Hope this helps. Welcome to the forum.
Robert C. Jadin
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RE: Cottonmouth bites
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by Snakeman1982 on July 22, 2003
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Sorry I forgot to state that when you are in an area with potentially dangerous snakes just pay attention to where you walk and what is around you so you don't accidentally step near a snake. If you aren't paying attention or watching for cottonmouths etc... then you could easily stand on one.
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RE: Cottonmouth bites
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by txhiker on July 23, 2003
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Thank you Jared! I am glad to hear from a vet tech.
There are a variety of dogs that go on our Hike & Swim excursions, about 6 that are mostly Shepard mixes and Wolfdogs with the small dog being a black Pug. We also have puppies sometimes like labs, etc. So yes, I am more concerned as to the smaller dogs' medical reactions. The Pug is only 17 lbs. The big dogs mostly stay in the deeper crystal clear water fetching sticks, with the Pug swimming around leisurely and getting the others to chase her up on the banks. They also go nuts when a new dog arrives. All of the dogs get out of the creek to urinate and go up to the tree line where there is some earth and grasses for targeting. Occasionally there is one that will defecate but that usually occurs back at the parking lot when the dogs first jump out of the vehicles. There are trash cans there and we carry plastic baggies for that purpose.
It seems that the urine at the creek would ward off wildlife in general.
I have only spotted 3 snakes in 2 years in the water at this creek. Two were skittish Tx black rat snakes hunting for minnows/frogs in the water (2 feet long) and one six-foot blotched water snake that was riding the rapids with its head dramatically erect about a foot above the surface.
On this particular occassion, the Pug was by herself drinking at the edge of the water at a different rocky creek with me slightly more than an arms length away behind her. We both spotted a snake coming downstream over the rocks/rapids from a dammed area that formed several large man-made, 10-acre marshy ponds. I tried to reach forward to grab her but the snake arrived first and we both froze. As the Pug lifted her head up and locked her gaze, only her eyes moved as the head of the snake bobbed within inches of her face. It seemed oblivious. At first I thought it was small because the head and neck appeared skinny, but when it caught on a log to rest about 15 feet downstream, it's entire six-foot length came out of the water. I should have known with an entire foot above the surface that there must be a lot more under water. It's body was fat at about 2.5 inches in diameter or more. It was a charcoal color with bands of brown encircling it. I did not notice a lighter colored belly and I got pretty close (about 5 feet.) It's head was resting down at this point facing away from me. It did not coil or seem to notice me. I of course left the area at this point since we had been there long enough.
While I believe this was a blotched water snake, I can never be sure. I didn't want to stick around to find out since I was by myself.
I don't know which large snakes have fangs and which don't. I know that the little snakes that I have handled don't and their rare bites are much kinder than that of a hamster!
I am particularly concerned if the smaller dogs on our hikes are bitten by Cottonmouths. We have Western Cottonmouths that average between four and six feet, of which I have seen many of these over my lifetime close up after a rain, coiled with their gaping white mouths poised. I can't imagine ACCIDENTLY stumbling across one of these mammoths.
Your advice is greatly appreciated.
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RE: Cottonmouth bites
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by txhiker on July 23, 2003
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Thanks for that info. I am glad they are less aggressive. My cats use to dance around them when I lived in Houston. They would come up on our back sidewalk from the muddy creek about 100 feet behind our house in the country.
When I would walk out in the morning after a rain, I would discover them and see our three or four cats doing the mexican hat dance around the snakes, their white mouths poised and gently bobbing whenever a cat would swipe at them. I was amazed that the cats never got bit. I would call the cats in just to be on the safe side and the snakes would crawl away. We never killed any of the snakes. There were a million more where they came from.
My major concern with bites is the dogs when they get a little nutty sometimes and get out of the creek and up on to the bank to urinate. Since they are mostly young, they are hopping and chasing after whichever dog gets out of the water first, biting each other's tails. In this moment of merry making, it does concern me that they are not paying attention and my stumble on a cottonmouth. It hasn't happened in two years but you never know!
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oklahoma
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by txhiker on July 23, 2003
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You mentioned Oklahoma. I am sorry this is off topic but I have been trying to find someone who has visited the creek that feeds Turner Falls in Davis Oklahoma. I don't know how far the park property extends and whether there is access to the creek outside the park. Dogs are not allowed to enter the creek within the park.
When I looked at a map it appears that there are three county roads surrounding a vast wilderness with no development. I see know way to the creek. I don't know where it originates. Do you have any information on this?
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RE: oklahoma
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by Snakeman1982 on July 24, 2003
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Hello again Jennifer,
First I’ll help you out with the fang situation. I’ll give you the skinny on it so you can get a brief understanding. Only venomous snakes have “fangs”. All other snakes have what is called aglyphous teeth. These are just regular teeth although some will be larger than others. Your venomous snakes have either opistoglyphous fangs (rear-fanged colubrids), proteroglyphous fangs (elapids, like coral snakes, kraits, sea snakes, Australian venomous, and cobras), and of course solenoglyphous fangs (vipers like rattlesnake, cottonmouths, and copperheads). These two fangs are large, at the front of the mouth, and can move independent of one another. They are like hypodermic needles delivering their venom. They have other teeth in addition to these but aren’t near as long and aren’t designed to deliver venom.
Now although your non-venomous species all have what is considered to be aglyphous teeth they can be quite different. If a five-foot black rat snake and a two-foot water snake bite you, you will see why. The two-foot water snake will probably hurt more because its teeth are designed to catch a lot of fish so they are longer and hook more. So there are differences in that respect but neither one has “fangs” because they don’t deliver venom. A python will have much larger teeth than say a coral snake’s two “fangs” but they aren’t considered fangs because of the lack of grooves and connection to venom ducts.
Like you said there wouldn’t be very many snakes there at the river you go to. When you go to a place where people commonly go to, you won’t find many snakes, even at a river. That is because people kill them when they see them, usually for fun or to “protect people”. You will still see water snakes etc… but fewer than you probably would further down stream.
The main reason people think that water moccasins (aka cottonmouths) are so mean and aggressive is mostly “urban legends” but also because they mostly see water snakes being aggressive. The general public is very ignorant about snakes and immediately thinks that every snake they see is a rattlesnake, cottonmouth, or copperhead when in actual fact it is usually a non-venomous species. We like to call those “copperheadedrattlemoccasins”. Sadly they kill these or handle them thinking they are soo cool because they just killed a “cottonmouth” that would have “killed every kid in the camp” while in actual fact they shot or threw stones at a non-venomous snake from afar, like cowards. Unlike cottonmouths, water snakes are known to be very nasty biters and constantly go after you with out stopping. Usually a rattlesnake will calm down after 30 seconds or so of being handled but water snakes just constantly want to be left alone and will often bite furiously every second you have them. So people see some one around them and think that all snakes are like that.
Now I am not trying to step on your toes here but I might a little bit, so I apologize in advance. Don’t worry too much about running into one of those “mammoths” you were talking about. The largest water snake ever recorded in the U.S. was a 74-inch (just over 6 feet) Florida Green Water snake (Nerodia floridana) and the Brown Water snake (Nerodia taxispilota) 69 ½ inches (just under 6 feet). Neither one of these occurs near Texas, they occur in and around Florida. I have caught both of these species and the largest one I caught was a Florida Water snake less than 4 feet and it bit me on the foot (I was wearing sandals of course, lol).
The largest water snake in Texas is the Diamondback water snake with a record length of 60 inches. I caught one of these at Lake Fort Gibson Oklahoma that was about 4 foot and it was a lot to handle (the Indian man working at the marina we rescued it from swore to us that it was five and a half). Last spring I went down to southeastern Oklahoma and my biologist buddy saw a huge one in a canal, easily the largest snake I have seen in the wild. Half of it was showing out of the water but its head was in. I grabbed my camera and decided to take pictures of it while he got it out of the water, this would be the biggest mistake of my herpetology career so far. He has an old pair of tongs and when he grabbed the snake with them, it violently shock out of the tongs and swam away. I snapped off two pictures of the ordeal, neither shows the entire snake but does barely show some of its massive size. I only saw the head one time as it looked at us and still can’t believe how big it was. I had never been so mad in the field as when he lost that snake and I still bring it up to this day. If I get another chance at that I won’t let that happen again because next time I will just jump on it and take a bite like we should have done the first time. I would have swore it was larger than five-feet but because I didn’t catch it and measure it, I have to stick with what the books say and confess that it was smaller. It seemed to make the three and four footers that I have caught previously look like little midgets, but I never saw it fully stretched out of the water.
The blotched water snake (Nerodia erythrogaster transversa) you are talking about has a record length of just less than 5 feet. Not sure exactly because I don’t have my books with me, they are in storage while I am away from school. Generally they are very common and are usually around 2 to 3 feet long.
I believe the largest water moccasin ever recorded was a Florida Cottonmouth (Agkistrodon piscivorus conanti) at about 74 inches (just over 6 feet). There might have been an Eastern cottonmouth with slightly larger records but I doubt it. The western cottonmouth (Agkistrodon piscivorus leucostoma), the only one found in Texas, is considerably smaller than the previous two with a record length around 5 feet. Generally cottonmouths, like water snakes, are also around 2-3 feet long. Of all the cottonmouths that I have caught (both Florida and Western, haven’t been around in areas to catch the Eastern yet) I have caught maybe one that could be three foot long or barely longer. Snakes in the U.S. just don’t get that big. I am hoping to catch a seven foot plus Sonoran Gopher snake this summer in Arizona, wish me luck, they are about the longest snake you are going to find in America with records just over 8 feet. The only other snakes in the U.S. that can get 6 feet long, which rarely occurs, are common kingsnakes (Lampropeltis getula or getulus ssp. depending on where you get your info), Eastern and western diamondback rattlesnakes (Crotalus adamanteus and Crotalus atrox), some rat snakes (Elaphe sp.), Gopher and Bullsnakes (Pituophis catenifer sp.), Pine snakes (Pituophis melanoleucus), a couple of subspecies of racers (Coluber constrictor ssp.), coachwhips (Masticophis flagellum ssp.), and Indigo Snakes (Drymarchon corais, I might be spelling corais or whatever wrong but think I am right). If you catch an Indigo Snake at any size I will take my hat off to you because not only are they cool because they are the largest non-venomous species in the U.S. but very rare too.
Hope this information helps, I apologize again if I offend you by contradicting your info, just trying to keep you informed.
Robert C. Jadin
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RE: oklahoma
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by Snakeman1982 on July 24, 2003
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Sorry although I do live here while in school I don't know the geography of Oklahoma well so I can't help you with the Davis Oklahoma question.
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RE: Cottonmouth bites
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by jared on July 25, 2003
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Hey Jennifer,
The pug may be an exception to the general rule. Being that animal is so small, even the copperhead bite would cause it some pretty severe problems, and possibly death. Most dog over 50lbs can take an adult copper hit and be fine in a few days with a little tlc and maybe to antibiotics, cottons can be a little more severe than coppers, and as I said a rattler bite more often than not can be a death sentence, especially if the dog is 17lbs. I have worked with cottons (getting in my damn fish and minnow traps) for many years, and I did see the work Whit did on Natl Geo and his article regarding copperhead and cotton aggression, and can say, many of the cottons I have kept would not hesitate to strike, at anytime, cb or Wc. But in the wild reactions vary, and in the wild most coppers will strike readily if they have no access to an exit. All I am saying is be careful, if you see one of these animals give yourself and your animals at least 5ft to go around it or in the other direction. Cottonmouths unlike copperheads are much more likely to deliver a fatal blow, but either will take a swing at you or a dog (which is obviously seen by the snake as something that will eat it). Yes there are lots of rumors about cottonmouth aggression (them jumpin in boats to git cha, killing that little boy who though he had dug up fishin worms etc) but most are biased and not true. They are not going to pursue you(though I have people swear it to me daily) and most snake bites occur on the hands and forearms anyway. Point being, give um all 5ft and swingin a shovel at it could get ya bit as well. Good luck with your dogs, they should be fine.
Jared
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