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Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by Caduceus on September 20, 2011
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Danny Smith wrote a thread on this site asking for advice on out crossing snakes. He received sound advice but the conversation quickly degenerated into an argument over whether or not hybridization is ethical. I am starting this thread to address the question directly, this way Dan's page is no longer a war zone and people can come here to talk about whether or not they fell hybridization is ethical and to Dan's thread to talk about breeding techniques. I have copied and pasted the relevant parts of the dialect so that the conversation can continue where it left off.
RE: Come on guys(little help here)
Reply by AquaHerp on September 4, 2011
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I am not starting an argument. My own "opinion" is that I wonder about those who feel that the original snake is not good enough.
As far as them breeding in the wild, I have heard of one report of these two species from the wild and that one was questionable in the end.
RE: Come on guys(little help here)
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Caduceus on September 18, 2011
Danny, it is important to remember that Hybridization is a form of evolution and that when you practice artificial selection through any means you are practicing science, creating new species, and improving the line of snakes you own by increasing genetic diversity. Yes, hybridization does have its drawbacks, many of the pregnancies fail, some of the offspring maybe infertile, and you may get a unique animal about which little is understood. However, when hybridization is successful it is the most rewarding thing you can experience. Your are literally watching the evolution of life in front of you. Not to mention that you have just created a totally unique animal to study and understand that only you have. This animal may have physiological, genetic, or evolutionary advantages over its biological parents (hybrid vigor), it may also have scientific vigor in the sense that it may be able to produce a new venom that can create a more potent anti-venom, can fight cancer, etc. The scientific possibilities are really endless. I can think of 100's of studies you can conduct just off of the top of my head. The people in the zoological sphere who consider themselves "purist" are not taken serious by any professional zoologist as all intelligent zoologist recognize that the pro's of hybridization out way the cons. Purist are usually outspoken and vocal however their ideas are anti science, anti evolution, anti life, and anti intellectual. No professional zoologist would advocate for stunting or retarding the evolution of a genus by supporting genetic erosion and undermining genetic diversity; and since advocating for the stunting or retarding of a genus by stopping it from out crossing is no different than advocating for the genetic erosion of a species by stopping it from randomly generating mutations that act on natural selection it is only a matter of time before the idea of purism falls into complete obscurity. In fact, what purist are actually advocating for is senseless cruelty and abuse because they denying animals in captivity the ability to adapt and change over time and this is no different than trying to keep baby alligators in 10 gallon tanks their whole life and seeing what happens. Denying an animal the room it needs to grow is the abstract equivalent of, and no different from, denying it the need to diversify.
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by Caduceus on September 18, 2011
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In fact, the idea that evolution offends some people is so absurd that it actually intrigues me. So if there is any purist in the room I have to ask, what is it about evolution that offends you ? Do slow gradual morphological changes offend you ? Do genetic mutations offend you ? Does the dramatic changes the occur when to organisms outcross offend you ? Does natural selection offend you ? What about artificial selection ? I honestly want to know. What is it about evolution that offends you ?
RE: Come on guys(little help here) Reply
by JHarrison on September 18, 2011
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Ray, your misguided ideas about evolution offend me.
Now, evolution itself? MAHVELOUS!
You are greatly oversimplifying the idea of hybrid vigor. In fact, there are typically barriers of some sort that prevent hybridization in the wild. In captivity, there is no evolution occurring because the animal is no longer in its natural habitat, instead it is in captivity. Therefore breeding in captivity is artificial selection. There are cases when the two may combine, but stating that hybridizing Bitis in captivity is evolution is complete bunk. Also, even if the venom did have some magical anti-cancer properties, it would be useless in research because the likelihood of reproducing the same venom would be very small. Which combination of genes resulted in the amazing venom? No way to know and no way to genetically engineer that at this point in time. Likewise, how exactly would any antivenin produced from a hybrid be useful? MAYBE there are a few hybrids here and there in the wild (I remain mostly unconvinced of this) but certainly people are bitten much much much more frequently by the actual species in question than by any sort of hybrid.
Danny, I personally don't understand why people want to hybridize, to me it is too much like playing God, which for me is saying something since I am an atheist. However, it is more important to me that animals in captivity are properly cared for, and if your guys are healthy that would be enough to make me happy, even if we disagree. A polite note to you regarding wanting people to respond to your posts: I for one would be more likely to comment if you used capital letters. My eyes get tired reading the internets and lack of clearly visible sentences is tiring. I feel the same way about very terrible lolspeak.
RE: Come on guys(little help here) Reply
by CHRIS on September 18, 2011
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Danny How do you feel about your neighbor makeing out with a spider monkey,would that not be a new design in evolution? Chris
RE: Come on guys(little help here) Reply
by CHRIS on September 18, 2011
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Hey Jim how is the B.Carib doing ? Take care Chris
RE: Come on guys(little help here) Reply
by Caduceus on September 19, 2011
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Your argument is very subjective and the biased and your reasoning is flawed. First of all, to claim that "in captivity, there is no evolution occurring" is an equivocation and a lie and I am surprised that an atheist would know so little about evolution. Evolution is always occurring, even if you isolated a distinct population of animals over time they would eventually begin to mutate and change. This is true no matter where the animal is being held and there is no way to stop it from happening. Artificial selection is not defined as simply "breeding animals in captivity." Artificial selection is the science of selectively breeding for certain traits, better traits, or combinations of traits. Instead of nature deciding what traits get to be passed on (natural selection) humans decide what traits get to be passed on( artificial selection.) The only real difference between artificial selection and natural selection is that in the wild animals that have mutations that are detrimental to, or do not aid in, their survival, die off. So nature dictates what traits get to be passed on and the direction in which animals evolve and morph genetically and physiologically. As where in captivity humans decide which animals get to breed and which traits get to be passed on based on what we want out of that animal. Is it really relevant whether or not an ice age causes animals to change or a human does ? I think not, and since the natural habitats of most snakes are being depleted and destroyed at a rapid rate, and that there are now some species of snake such as Crotalus durissus unicolor that are only found in captivity, I see no reason why breeders shouldn't breed snakes for traits that make them more marketable since captivity may be the last chance some of these animals have from keeping their names off of the extinction list. It makes plenty of sense that breeders breed snakes that are more docile and colorful since in captivity something like a ball python doesn't have to be the same color as a leaf to survive. If a genetically striped albino pied ball python gives people more incentive to go out and buy more ball pythons, breed more ball pythons, and take better care of their ball pythons (some of these snakes get treated better than I do) then evolving into a more docile aesthetically pleasing specimen is not only in a snakes interest but has become part of its evolution as well. The natural time line would go something like this: humans evolved intelligence, left a state of nature and entered into a state of society, began to keep animals in captivity, and then animals began evolving to live in captivity. Living in a state of captivity or society as opposed to a state of nature has many advantages as well. However, Bickering about whether or not it is ethical for an animal to change by out crossing or mutating is ridiculous, and if you can get a more desirable trait by out crossing there is literally no reason not to since you cannot stop a population of animals from mutating and developing new traits to begin with. Just breeding a population of animals in captivity with no aim is not artificial selection, in fact it's not selection at all, it's just negligence, and by choosing to not nurture, aid, and direct the development of a population you are playing God because you are consciously choosing to stunt, retard, and impede the development of the said population; which actually sounds more like playing Satan to me, but then again you did say you were an atheist correct ? So I am sure you find the idea of playing Satan very appealing.
Secondly, if you bred a hybrid population of snakes, and that population had all of the traits that you wanted and thus became a breed that only you produced, it would be easy to continue producing a hybrid venom that may be useful to science since all you would have to do is continuing milking and breeding the population of snakes that you have. Seems kind of like common sense. In an article by science daily entitled, "Snake Venom As Therapeutic Treatment Of Cancer" (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070415133122.htm) illustrates my point exactly. If rattle snake venom has cancer fighting properties who is to say that different strains of this venom from hybrid snakes would not enhance of benefit those properties. In addition the scientific benefits of hybridization may not just come from the venom snakes produce, there could be other benefits as well that stem for their general anatomy and physiology. That might be immune to certain viruses or disease and this may have a wide range of implications for humans or they may just have unique features that could have a wide range of implications for humans. There could be other more practical benefits as well. Who is to say hybrid rattle snakes wouldn't produce longer lasting better feeling boots ?
Thirdly there are plenty of hybrids that have been documented to occur naturally in the wild: the grizzly polar bear hybrid, the guinea fowl x peafowl hybrid (which is actually an example of an interfamilial hybrid which is the crossing of two different families as opposed to the crossing of a genera, intergeneric, genus, interspecific, subspecies, intra-specific, or even a different order, interordinal), the spotted owl hybrid , and the naturally-occurring hybrid porpoise. In addition natural hybrids may have major advantages over their "pure" counterparts. One article entitled, "Hybrids May Thrive Where Parents Fear to Tread" states, "some combinations might enable hybrids to adapt to conditions in which neither parent may fare as well. Several such examples are now known from nature. Furthermore, DNA analysis is now allowing biologists to better decipher the histories of species and to detect past hybridization events that have contributed new genes and capabilities to various kinds of organisms including, it now appears, ourselves" (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/science/14creatures.html). I addition to the benefits of natural hybridization selective breeding of domestic animals such as dogs and cats have given us excellent breeds of animals and I see no reason why we should not do the same with snakes. The Doberman is a cross between many different k-9's, and it is in the top 10 breeds of dogs. Why shouldn't we do the same with snakes ? And again I have to ask, why are you against evolution ? What I have laid out here isn't just my "misguided idea's about evolution" it is literally the text book definition and science of evolution that you would get from a college class. Believe me, I know, I have a masters degree in biology.
RE: Come on guys(little help here) Reply
by CHRIS on September 19, 2011
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Dexter I appreciate your opinion, but in all reality by trying to change what God has created is foolish ,can we improve on his work. I dont think so. Almost every thing man touches we destroy.Evoloution will happen at its own pace.If we feel there is some magic cure out there derived from genetic alteration,how many species should be sacrificed tell we say enough is enough? Also C.D.Unicolor still exsists in the wild.And to acheive a better pair of boots,sounds like a very poor argument ,dont you think really? And the ideal of a Masters or for that matter a P.H.D. makeing someone qualified as an athority is a weak argument. Let nature be the way God created it,and protect it for what it is,we cant improve it. Chris
RE: Come on guys(little help here) Reply
by AquaHerp on September 19, 2011
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So, you are a degreed zoologist? If so, where in the hell did you get your degree? Your hybrid theory is at best laughable.
There is no real research value in hybrid animals. None. That was undoubtedly the most ridiculous and amateur series of horse shit that I have read in days.
Where do these people come from?
DH
RE: Come on guys(little help here) Reply
by AquaHerp on September 19, 2011
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Also....you have absolutely no idea of venom and how it is applied in biomedical research. The VENOM of a snakes is basically worthless bio medically as a whole. Venom contains hundreds, possibly thousands of molecules each acting in its own way. Researchers look at them individually as to how they might be applied to a drug. The rest of the venom is not even in the variable. Hybridizing two snakes would have absolutely no value whatsoever to biomedical studies. As a matter of fact, since we look at these venoms from known localities, a hybrid captive snake would be less than worthless to science. A hybrid is not going to create a new protein. The offspring will have venom traits of both parents. We have known this for many years.
I was amused at your attempt to go at your opinion from a "professional zoologist" standpoint. However, your information shows that you have no real background in this realm whatsoever. Now, if you would have said "this is my opinion and this is my angle" perhaps it might have gone over better. But to bash others and not even know your subject matter was a poor direction to jump.
DH
RE: Come on guys(little help here) Reply
by AquaHerp on September 19, 2011
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And....... Jim and I are both "professionals" that operate daily in the "zoological sphere". I oversee many programs for endangered species where as our "scientific" goal is to maintain genetic sustainability for the next 200 years. At no point is hybridization taken into account. Funny, your own argument was that "purist" are guilty of genetic erosion. I find this odd, as hybridization is the biggest cause of genetic erosion! Outbreeding is a great thing; it keeps genetics from bottlenecking....but within the same species.
I did get a kick out of your opinion. As an "opinion" I can even respect it. Please don't try to dress it up as science. It fails on every level. What you are doing is what I call "the squid tactic". Trying to hide behind a cloud of ink does not make your stand any less venerable
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by Caduceus on September 20, 2011
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AquaHerp you are wrong on a number of fronts. First of all, there is certainly plenty of research value in hybrid animals, and second of all there are plenty of uses of snake venom in the biomedical sphere outside of the production of drugs. Hybrid snake may very well generate new proteins, enzymes , and toxins that have biomedical significance, after all, over time as snakes evolved they did evolve different venom types, so to argue that producing a new species of snake via evolution through hybridization would not produce a new unique venom is logically flawed circular reasoning. And since we know that venom does have biomedical significance we can deduce that new types of venom may have new biomedical benefits. For example, John C. Holliday in his paper, "THE HYBRIDIZATION OF CORDYCEPS SINENSIS STRAINS AND THE MODIFICATIONS OF THEIR CULTURE PARAMETERS, IN ORDER TO OPTIMIZE THE PRODUCTION OF TARGET MEDICINAL COMPOUNDS" writes about how he used snake venom to aid in the production of target medical compounds, " We used purified snake venom from the Western Diamondback Rattlesnake (Crotalus atrox see illustration 2) [Sigma Scientific, St Louis Missouri, USA] for our hybridization techniques. The snake venom is added to the agar medium in quantities that alters the growth but does not prove toxic to the strain in question. This range of snake venom is from 10 mg to 30 mg per 300 ml of agar medium." Another article by Ramachandran Meenakshisundaram entitled, "Hypothesis of snake and insect venoms against Human Immunodeficiency Virus" argues that, " homology and enzymes (protease or L- amino acid oxidase) may have an effect on membrane protein and/or act against HIV at multiple levels or cells carrying HIV virus resulting in enhanced effect of anti-retroviral therapy (ART)." In fact I am a member of a site where I can download and read scholarly articles, and a quick scan yields 1000's of papers on the subject, here is just a few:
1. Koh D, Armugam A, Jeyaseelan K: Snake venom components and their applications in biomedicine.
2. Patlak M: From viper's venom to drug design: treating hypertension.
3. Marsh NA: Diagnostic uses of snake venom.
4. Chen ZX, Zhang HL, Gu ZL, Chen BW, Han R, Reid PF, Raymond LN, Qin ZH: A long-form alpha-neurotoxin from cobra venom produces potent opioid-independent analgesia.
5. Pu XC, Wong PT, Gopalakrishnakone P: A novel analgesic toxin (hannalgesin) from the venom of king cobra (Ophiophagus hannah).
6. Faure G, Harvey AL, Thomson E, Saliou B, Radvyani F, Bon C: Comparison of crotoxin isoforms reveals that stability of the complex plays a major role in its pharmacological action.
7. Alrajhi AA, Almohaizeie A: Snake venom preparation for drug-resistant human immunodeficiency virus.
8. Neri P, Bracci L, Rustici M, Santucci A: Sequence homology between HIV gp120, rabies virus glycoprotein, and snake venom neurotoxins.
9. Tandon V, Kapoor B, Bano G, Gupta S, Gillani Z, Kour D: P-glycoprotein: Pharmacological relevance.
Additionally, an article by Fritzinger, entitled, " Functional characterization of human C3/cobra venom factor hybrid proteins for therapeutic complement depletion" states, " Cobra venom factor (CVF) is a structural and functional analog of complement C3 isolated from cobra venom. Both CVF and C3b can bind factor B and subsequently form the bimolecular C3/C5 convertases CVF,Bb or C3b,Bb, respectively. The two homologous enzymes exhibit several differences of which the difference in physico-chemical stability is most important, allowing continuous activation of C3 and C5 by CVF,Bb, leading to serum complement depletion. We describe the detailed functional properties of two hybrid proteins in which the 113 or 315 C-terminal residues of C3 were replaced with corresponding CVF sequences. Both hybrid proteins formed stable convertases that exhibited C3-cleaving activity, although at different rates."
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by Caduceus on September 20, 2011
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Second of all Aquaherp, my argument is not an opinion, it is at best a fact, and a least a serious scientific theory. Every component of my argument, from my definitions of natural and artificial selection, to my evidence of naturally occurring hybrids, can be researched and shown to be text book quality hard facts. I explained all of my ideas in detail and backed them by science. You are just making aimless claims with no evidence to back up any of the things you say . And unfortunately for you "spreading ink" is not a recognized logical fallacy, but appealing to emotion is. Therefore, when instead of facts, you use persuasive language to develop the foundation of your argument, an appeal to an emotion based argument is made and no substantial proof offered is. Thus, none of the things you say really matter and even if they did they wouldn't be recognized by serious academics because serious scholars s do not take appeals to emotion serious.
BTW, will the animals that you have held in captivity and isolation for 200 years even be able to return to their native environments after 200 years in captivity ? Will their immune system be able to handle the environmental changes that can happen over a 200 year period ? Will they still be fit to live in that environment ? Will their native habitat even still be there ? Will the wild specimens begin the differ genetically and physiologically from the captive specimens ? How will you deal with the mutations that your captive population generates ? Will you weed out the animals that have genetic deficiencies as nature would ? You will propagate the animals that are better suited, or would have a better chance in their natural environment ? Who will decide which mutations are the beneficial ones ? Is it ethical to breed captive specimens to resemble their wild counterparts ? Have you even thought about any of this ? If Genetic erosion is a process whereby an already limited gene pool is depleted further how does hybridization, which ads genetic diversity to a population, cause genetic erosion ? How come you claimed that there is no biomedical significance to snake venom and that I had no idea what I was talking about yet I was well versed on the subject because I have read and researched scholarly articles on this topic that you did not even know exist ? I have an intellectual justification for my talking point that hybridization is ethical in that it is, by definition, evolution - but what is your intellectual justification for purism ? If animals in the wild are constantly changing and adapting to survive is purism even possible ? Is it ethical to stunt, retard, and impede the evolution of a population just to keep the population the same as it was in this era ? Even if there was no "research value for hybrids" which is either a blunt lie or naive mindlessness it is still justifiable in the sense that it is evolution and that it may make snakes more marketable which will increase the numbers of their captive population- but again how can purism address and of these issues ? How can purism help animals adapt to captivity like hybridization can ? Is it ethical to not adapt captive animals to captivity ? Should we not adapt wild animals to the wild ? Should breeders not domesticate and make better suited for captivity the animals they sell to people ? Are you just insane or do you just fixate and obsess over ridiculous ideas ? P.S. I am not against pure breed snakes, I just support the production of new and better breeds, especially when it comes to the propagation of these animals in the private sector. In my opinion a pure breed native Atheris Hispida is one of the most beautiful snakes on this planet and is completely irreplaceable, however, I also understand that a generation or two of squam blood to make them more viable in captivity would not hurt, nor am I delusional and try to deny that this hybridization would have a benefit for the captive species as a whole but possibly even for the wild species.
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by JHarrison on September 20, 2011
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Wow. Just this it is only for the making of a freak animal that these animals are breed. Being involved in venom production and research for 35 years. I see no need for crossing anything. Proteins used in research are already available in species we have. I don't really like it but if the animals never are released and are cared for I don.'t have dog in this fight. But please don.'t dress up a pig and call it a cow. The reason people cross normally is because they don't have a pair of the same species. In fact when we do venom to medicine we now are DNA IDing the species for the drug developers. Quality control standards and none of our buyers will take crossed animals. Read Dougs post it covers it well. I believe in evolution but this is more frankstein then useable science. Do some reseachers look a crossed animal venom of course. Do they encourage it No. I don't know if she will but Kristen is a biology master grad with great interest in evolution. Maybe she will post her opinion if she gets a chance.
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by JHarrison on September 20, 2011
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Sorry, Should have read your post closer. The papers your quoting state hybridization of venom outside the snake not in it. Most of the papers you pulled up Doug and I know the authors . Also we provide venom to a lot of them. Maybe I missed something I am on cold meds today. Please help me out which papers show hybrid crossed snakes venom being used. Also Doug worked at a venom research lab in Texas and knows a lot about isolating proteins . When doing research we often cleave, split and hybridize venoms. Not sure where it takes us on this subject. But I am open to enlightenment. By way we are very aware of what can and can not do/ what be used for ,etc. It's what we do 7 days a week.
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by Crotalusssp on September 20, 2011
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Since Doug and Jim have stated that venom from hybrids is not in demand, now we have the other, and by FAR most common, reason for hybridization....Profit. There may be a small segment who truly is interested in the aesthetics of these organisms once created, but mostly money is the main goal. Evolution is at work all the time and the diversity of the organisms on the planet are its result. The captive propagation of organisms by means of ARTIFICIAL selection for profit or beauty does not fit my description of evolution. Evolution is defined as change in genetics of a POPULATION over time. It does not occur at the individual/organism level. I do also realize that artificial selection is and can be used to show evidence of evolution.
My own personal view is that it is our responsibility to maintain not only the health of our captives, but also their genetic integrity. I do not see myself as holding the keys to the fate of the genetics of wild animals such as are in captive breeding programs, but I do see my animals as examples of wild animals that evolved exactly in that fashion over millions of years into their present perfectly suited form. Alteration from this form for my own profit or aesthetic choice, I find to be a crime against nature if you will. This also holds true for my feelings about venomoid animals, not to open that can of worms, but I believe their creation to also be selfish and wrong.
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by AquaHerp on September 20, 2011
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My scientific data is sound. You obviously have not read, or at best, understood your citations.
I'd say that your theory, yes.. "your theory" is flawed, but then that would indicate that there was a foundation there to begin with. There is not.
I really could care less if people want to create morphs and hybrids and peddle them to one another. It's not my thing, but it's not for me to say what others wish to do in respects to their own animals.
But to call this "evolution" or creating a new species is 100% laughable. No place in any of your arguments are you presenting scientific data. You are simply pulling things off the internet and assuming that they apply to your fantasy. They do not. I question your ability to read and comprehend these articles.
I myself do not operate on emotion. I am science driven. Thus far, you have shown us nothing to your defense of your misled theory.
As Jim pointed out, most of the authors that you have presented and studies therein, are known quite well by us. As an example, to cite anything by Raymond Hoser simply shows that you are unfamiliar with your subject matter.
I try very hard to hear others out, to a degree. However, when it becomes this diluted and misdirected at some point it just needs to reach an end.
So, you claim that you have a masters degree in biology. Please provide us with your thesis title, date and location that you defended that thesis. We will then pull this information up and see what we are dealing with.
Jumping on a forum and pretending to be something that you are clearly not and trying to regurgitate other's work into an incoherent theory is not going to fly here.
Personally, I am about done with this as it is a waste of time and obviously the work of a lost adolescent trying to make a stake in an area that he has no idea of.
I won't get into a pissing match with you. If you want to compare credentials, we can do that. But don't try to tell me my business, and don't try to blow smoke up my ass on matters such as venoms and herpetology in general.
If you like hybrid snakes, so be it. Great for you. But don't try to wrap mutated freaks into science. Also, try listening instead of making a fool of yourself by arguing with those that have been doing this a decade longer than you have even been alive.
DH
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by AquaHerp on September 20, 2011
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Let me go a little further.
My naive and ignorant ideas about venom research are not based upon what I can pull from PubMed. My knowledge is based upon my work in managing the nation's largest federally funded venom research facility. Mine comes from working along side the best researchers and pioneers of this research in the world. My understanding of genetics and long-term sustainability of species comes not only from my decades of work with endangered species and their respective habitats across the globe, from formal education, from literally doing this every day all day, it also comes from being tuned into what the rest of the world is working on regarding these issues.
Funny, just this morning I met with biologists from local game and fish as well as US Fish and Wildlife Services to discuss genetic sustainability in native endangered species. I am going to hazard a guess that since I work with dozens of agencies around the globe that value my expertise and understanding of the subject matter as it relates to some of the most critically endangered species known, I must be okay. As for your opinion and perspective, I'll stick with not worrying too much about what certain people think, especially when it's obvious that they don't do it very often.
DH
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by AquaHerp on September 20, 2011
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Psssssst..... It's not Atheris Hispida. Did you really get to a masters without understanding basic nomenclature principles?
DH
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