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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by Caduceus on September 27, 2011
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Have you completely lost your mind ? Why are you just ranting on about yourself nobody cares about what you do and why does it matter if you absolutely have no idea what you are talking about. ? You haven't rebuked anything I have said in any way whatsoever. My argument is about using artificial selection for trait selection to create new breeds of snakes. There is millions of traits you can select for via hybridization, not just venom. In fact venom production is irrelevant it was just a talking point that you started making up lies about to confuse people. You still lie ! How have you rebuked a single thing I have said ! Name a single thing ! Is hybridization not evolution ? Is artificial selection not evolution ? Can you not use evolution for trait selection ? Name one thing that you have even come close to rebuking. You haven't rebuked anything, not a single thing I have said. You are just twisting your own words around, lying, using ad hominem attacks, ranting about yourself , and making appeals to emotion, do you understand what a logical fallacy is ? Your arguments are in forms that are logically flawed. You are not going into detail or explaining how hybridization isn't evolution at all. Your just making claims with no substance and then trying to validate your claims by using yourself as a reference. Do you have brain damage that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. I can site scholarly articles to make my points here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11298968 that's the link to a paper that argues that hybridization is evolution. Have you ever heard of swine flu ? Try making an argument that doesn't involve using yourself as a reference, try, I dare you. Site scholarly work like I have, I dare you. Put forward an argument based on intellectual substance, I dare you ! You won't because you can't because you have no idea what you are talking about whatsoever you are just making baseless claims that appease the mindless base bureaucracy that you work for. I never came here claiming to know everything - I just came here and put forward an argument that hybridization is ethical because it is a form of evolution and can aid breeders in trait selection when they artificially select animals for domestic purposes, scientific purposes, or even introducing a hybrid animal into a changing or new environment that the parent animals would become extinct in. They have done this with cattle, dogs, plants, etc. You can disagree, fine, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you have put forward an argument that has any substance at all. In fact you have no argument, your argument is just attacking my character and making things up about yourself but you have no substantive argument against mine that can rest on its own merits. Only JHarrison and Crotalussp have attempted to put forward serious arguments against mine and I struck them both down with ease. You are just an angry little man that sits home and pretends that he is a doctor.
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by Caduceus on September 27, 2011
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by AquaHerp on September 27, 2011
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Sigh.....
We have already rebuked them on every level.
I never said a word about venom not being valuable to biomedical purposes.
RE: Come on guys(little help here) Reply
by AquaHerp on September 19, 2011
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Also....you have absolutely no idea of venom and how it is applied in biomedical research. The VENOM of a snakes is basically worthless bio medically as a whole. Venom contains hundreds, possibly thousands of molecules each acting in its own way. Researchers look at them individually as to how they might be applied to a drug. The rest of the venom is not even in the variable.
As you can see from my illustration here I can actually demonstrate that you are liar and have no idea what you are talking about. I cited an article which showed that other parts on the snake venom was in the variable and that it did have bio medical significance. Then you tried to turn around and lie about what you said on the same forum in which you made you les. Classic ! It is right on page 1. lmao, its almost comical. Why don't you leave this forum so we can have a constructive debate there are much better arguments out there then the ones that you are making why don't you give someone else a chance lying and arguing logical fallacies obviously isn't working out for you.
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by Caduceus on September 27, 2011
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"Then you tried to turn around and lie about what you said on the same forum in which you made the lies" (sorry iphone makes it tricky to type.)
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by AquaHerp on September 27, 2011
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Look..... I cited myself because you seem to think you know something that you do not. You can go on all you like. At no time did I backtrack on a single thing I said. You cited again with not understanding what you were reading.
Here are the hard indisputable facts:
1.You claim to be a degeeed biologist. You clearly cannot be. Not with your total lack of understanding of anything written thus far. Why do I need to make any citations? There are hundreds upon hundreds of published articles out there...every one disputing your ideas.
2. You claim to know how venom works. You clearly do not. Hybridizing two snakes gives you properties of both donors in as much as venom is concerned. Again, this is widely known and has been published upon countless times. It DOES NOT create new protiens! Thus you are clueless and lack the ability to read or research.
3. You claim to "know" venoms as it applies to biomedical applications. You do not even understand the principles of how this works even on a basic level. I've had grade schoolers grasp this faster than you.
4. You do not grasp this on any plane whatsoever. Let me "dispute" or elaborate my little misguided troll....
>>> For example, my mamba seems to try to flatten his neck like a cobra often but can't do it as well, and I also noticed my cobras cant open their mouths as wide as some of my pythons can when they eat food.<<<
If you are just now noticing these traits, that tells me you have been working these types of snakes for all of about a week. These are standard traits.
>>>So if you started breeding mambas for hood size and cobras for jaw expansion you may be aiding the animals evolution and acting in their interest as well. In fact, if purist went down this road instead of just trying to hold herpetology back by squealing about things that are common sense I may even concede and join you.<<<
This one I love. Mambas are a more advanced elapid than the cobras. Therefore, they shed the “neck-spreading” trait in favor of others. Why would an organism backtrack in evolutionary advancements?
Cobras are a more advanced snake than are pythons, by a looooong way. So again, why would you breed for traits that have been outdated? This shows clearly that while you try to argue these things, you do not even have a simple understanding of these animals. You debate evolution in snakes yet you don’t even have a clue about evolution in snakes?????
These are the reasons you have nothing to input here. Every single thing you have brought up is so far off the mark that it’s pathetic. Damn near painful to watch you make a fool of yourself.
If you want citations of work done by others, I suggest that you get these yourself and you might actually learn something. If nothing else, it will keep you from annoying us for a while.
The bottom line is you know nothing of the subjects you are arguing. The reason I tossed out my credentials, was in a failed hope that you would get a clue as to the people you are trying so sadly to discount.
My circle of professional friends includes Elda Sanchez, Brian Grieg Fry, John C. Perez, Jim Harrison and many others in the venom realm. Look the names up. You could use the education. Another friend, Wolfgang Wüster is one of the most respected and renowned zoologist specializing in reptile taxonomy in the world today. These are the folks I’ll get my ideas and information from. As does the rest of the scientific world. You yourself would do well to research your subject, at least…please please please…at an elementary level before trying to debate these items.
Let me put this in plain and basic terms. YOU HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ON ANY SUBJECT SO FAR!!!!!! Go back to your shift at IHOP, breed your mutant snakes, keep believing in the value of venomoids and pretend to your little buddies that you have a clue. But for fuck sakes, shut up about things you don’t know about! If you think you are sounding intelligent here, you are sadly mistaken. While you are at it, drop the thesaurus search for fancy words, it simply solidifies your ignorance.
I’m still waiting for your name so that we can look it up and see where your vast knowledge stems from. Until then, go away, the adults are trying to talk here. FFS!!!
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by AquaHerp on September 27, 2011
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My apologies to others here. Personally I am done trying to talk to this boy. If ignorance is bliss...he will die a happy man.
In the future, if he wishes to debate and stomp his feet till he gets his way,I am not that hard to find. In the interim, I will eagerly be awaiting his ground-breaking publications. I'll file them next to Hoser's.
DH
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by Rob_Carmichael on September 27, 2011
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I think this was Hoser talking:-)....Doug, well played, well argued and the troll trying to stir up trouble really doesn't have a shred of science underneath his very weak arguments and only validated what you were getting at.
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by AquaHerp on September 27, 2011
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Speaking of.....
Rob-
I'll contact you leter this week with updated info on the venomous workshop. After tomorrow's meeting we should have a better focus on some of the more feature aspects of the gig.
As we prepare for the event, we should hammer out the details on content.
Golly tho.. I wunt to do stuff on evolooshun in snayke vemims and conservashun models. I sho do hope we can muddle through this without the help from some of the lesser known but intelligenter biologist out there. :)
DH
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by Caduceus on September 27, 2011
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Well it's still not a coherent argument but at least you put some actual substance in this one so I will play ball with you.
1) Lack of understanding ? Ok, please elaborate on what I do not understand. Why cite your sources ? I don't know ummm maybe because it's the scholarly thing to do ? Have you ever published a paper or written an essay before ? I like to think that the people I am getting info from are making deductions from solid research observations, or scientific theories - like most sane people. You work where again ? Hundreds of papers disputing my claims... ok name one. I have no problem finding papers that rebuke your claims.
2 - 3) Ok, it is time to dismantle this absurd taking point you have once and for all, and to put an end to your ridicules argument by exposing you for the know nothing, naive, mindless, arrogant buffoon that you are. The heart of your argument against the relevance of hybridization in venom research, " a hybrid is not going to create a new protein." Lie ! First of all, Disintegrins vary and are created by genes. A mutation in a gene involved in the production of disintegrins could cause the amino acid structure of those disintegrins to change, thus creating new proteins. For example, the text book, "Snake Population Venomics" by Lisle Gibbs, Libia Sanz and Juan J. Calvete states, "Thus, the effects of gene regulation should be considered an important cause of variation in the composition of whole venoms at the intraspecific level. " Since hybridization can cause new genes to emerge it is very likely that new genes would create new disintegrins with new amino acid arangments. A paper by Mary Ann McLane who is one of the leading researcher in snake venom studies writes in her paper, " Disintegrins in Health and Disease" that,
" A major component in evolutionary studies involves phylogenic analysis.
In conjunction with genetic and biochemical data, these analysis have led to the
conclusion that disintegrin structural diversification can be
linked to loss of disulfide bonds and cysteine-rich domains
(18). These losses are separate incidences, such that the
loss of cysteine-rich domains occurred first followed by the
loss of disulfide bonds (18). This finding is a key to
disintegrin evolutionary studies. Soto, in a comparison of
disintegrins and SVMPs from three Crotalus species, found
that the genes encoding these proteins separate into distinct
clades. Further analysis suggested that rapid evolution
occurred between the genes coding for the SVMPs, and this
resulted in the production of the RGD disintegrin genes
(16). This agrees with the model of disintegrin evolution
proposed by Calvete (12, 26). (pg 6621 paragraph 6.)
She also wrote that:
authors proposed a common ancestral link between
the mRNA precursors coding for short disintegrins and
dimeric disintegrin subunits. This evolutionary pathway
involved (1) replacement of three N-terminal cysteine
residues by other amino acids; (2) the appearance of a
cysteine between the ninth and tenth cysteine in the
precursor; (3) proteolytic processing of the N-terminus and
(4) formation of short-disintegrin-specific disulfide bonds.
It is noteworthy that cDNA-deduced sequence analysis
shows serine.
Hybridization can trigger the rapid occurrence of these processes and others that cause Posttranslational modification. Hence your argument completely fails and is dead in the water. If you think otherwise then please, put forth a coherent argument cite your sources. BTW where did you ever get the idea in your head that hybridization couldn't cause new proteins with biomedical significance to arise, what is your source ?
Here is the link to the article: http://www.udel.edu/medtech/mclane/DisintegrinsinHealthandDisease2008.pdf
In addition, Mclean also stated that, ""It's awesome to think these venom proteins have been evolving for millions of years in snakes... All of the vipers have a version of this kind of protein and if we can unlock this capability, hopefully we can use it to our benefit. What people see as a scary snake could one day save their lives."
I have also emailed Mrs. Mclane at her email address at mclane@udel.edu and she confirmed that hybridization would generate new proteins that could possibly have biomedical significance.
"This one I love. Mambas are a more advanced elapid than the cobras. Therefore, they shed the “neck-spreading” trait in favor of others" Oh yea, well what are these other traits that they gave up their hoods for ? What trait was more advantageous to have ? Do you have any peer reviewed publications on the matter to cite as evidence ? The same goes for the cobra. Just because one species might have some more advanced traits does that mean that it is more advanced in every aspect ? I think not, and I think you're lying again.
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RE: Is Hybridization Ethical ?
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by Caduceus on September 27, 2011
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It seems we have a stage 10 evolution denier on our hands, you have done all but claim that snakes can't keep evolving because they were intelligently designed... wait are you ?
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