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Venom release of young snakes
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by BigJT on May 30, 2012
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I have heard people say time and time again that a young snake cant control its venom until later in life thus being a more dangerous bite (to an extent), but no one ever seems to have any kind of proof ( at least in my experience). A couple of weeks ago while live feeding a young copperhead I watched as he bit his small hopper 11 times, which took over 50 minutes for it to finally pass. It got me to thinking about if its true or not. Granted this is one in particular snake and many of things could have caused this. And I understand that there have been many down right nasty bites from neonates before but a thought came to mind. Neonates are a lot slower than a fully grown snake and if it were to perceive something as a threat maybe it would be willing to inject more venom to cause more damage and give it a greater chance of escaping. But maybe they don't have that great of a thought process, but if that's the case how could they control their venom at all. Does anyone know of any proof that venom control is an acquired ability through maturing and not one they are born with?
By the way I'm not trying to start a big argument or looking for hostile feedback, just asking a question
Thanks
JT
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RE: Venom release of young snakes
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by agkistrodude on May 31, 2012
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I believe it's an "old wives tale" myself. I was bitten on the thumb by a 1 or 2 day old Dusky Pygmy Rattlesnake a few years ago with no envenomation at all. I too have heard the same thing many times. Take care, Marty
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RE: Venom release of young snakes
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by CentralLF14 on May 31, 2012
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I am in no means an expert but have worked with many copperheads and timber rattlesnakes and have witnessed some bites so ill let you know my opinion. Also i have worked with many people from the fish commission who work with rattlesnakes for a living. From the bites i have witnessed you are much more likely to get a dry bite from an adult snake than a baby. I was told by a WCO the reasoning behind this is because it takes snakes energy to make venom and they do not want to use it on something that is not prey which is why you see more dry bites coming from adult snakes than babies. In my personal expierence in the bites i witnessed about half of the coming from adult snakes were dry bits. It seems they were giving the person a warning shot to let them know not to mess with them. I have seen a few bites occur from smaller snakes and only one of them was a dry bite. So it does seem that baby snakes do not know how to save venom as well as adult snake. I have no idea the reasoning behind this im just letting you know my personal expierences. People say baby snakes are more dangerous because they always hit you with venom which seems true for the most part. Baby snakes in my opinion are not more dangerous because if you would be unfortunate and get bitten you probably got envenomated but they are giving you a much smaller amount of venom compared to an adult snakes dosage. I have seen some nasty bites from baby snakes but the less venom you get the quicker you will recover in most cases. Hope this helps and like i said i am no expert but have worked with many venomous snakes and have worked with people who do this for a living and this is my personal opinion and what i have been told.
Take care,
Cody
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RE: Venom release of young snakes
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by BigJT on May 31, 2012
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True, I havent heard too many stories of dry bites from little snakes until the second comment on this page
Appreciate it
JT
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RE: Venom release of young snakes
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by CharlieO on May 31, 2012
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Cody's post raised a question for me (please go easy, I'm the layman here:) )...
Does it necessarily follow that the higher incidence of envenomation by juveniles (infant to xxx stage) is due to less *control* over venom release? I'm wondering if the same mental mechanisms could still be in play.
Cody, you noted that (at least some) adult dry bites seemed to be "warning shots." That might imply that the snake believed there was no imminent threat and therefore only delivered a warning bite. A juvenile would be unlikely to have encountered as many threats of varied natures as an adult; would it be plausible to consider that perhaps the juveniles simply label more threats as potentially lethal and react accordingly? In other words, if adults have the intelligence to analyze threats and react accordingly, is it possible that juveniles do the same, just with less consistent results?
I know I'm likely way off base here; the thread just raised my curiosity a bit...
Thanks all...have a good evening!
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RE: Venom release of young snakes
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by CharlieO on May 31, 2012
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Justin...
Apologies...I just reread your post and it appears that I was simply regurgitating your question...
C
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RE: Venom release of young snakes
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by AquaHerp on June 1, 2012
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True and untrue. This is a very complex one.
Venom changes in many neonate snake as they grow. This is to handle the gradual shift in prey items that the snake takes on. So, yes, there is a difference in the actual venom makeup of juveniles vs. adults. Is it overly more powerful? Not necessarily.
Do juvenile snakes have no control over the volume of venom they release? Yes and no. Newly born/hatched snakes may inject the same amounts of venom into a prey item regardless of size. However, the snakes "learn" if you will on dosing their prey items more appropriately. Watch how older snakes bypass any envenomation in small items (think, 4 foot snake v. fuzzy) So do the neonates have "no" control. Yes they do.
Lastly, we know there is a wide shift in venom complexities over the snake's range. Is the venom more powerful? Is it that the victim got a higher dose? Perhaps not. Is it that the antivenom used may not be overly effective on a snake from that area? Very likely.
Take care
DH
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RE: Venom release of young snakes
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by agkistrodude on June 2, 2012
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Maybe with neonates, it's not so much of a control over how much venom, because there's not a whole lot there to begin with, but maybe more of a control over envenomation or no envenomation? And as they grow and develop more quantity, they learn more "control". I know with adults, I've seen and I'm sure y'all have too, copperheads kill a jumbo mouse in 5 seconds, and I've also seen my 6 foot canebrake many times bite a rat and sit back and wait 30 - 40 minutes for it to die. Now in the wild, that rat probably would have been long gone and never found. Has it "learned" that it won't go very far in that cage? Interesting subject. And one reason I feed F/T (almost) always. Take care, MArty
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RE: Venom release of young snakes
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by BigJT on June 2, 2012
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That's kind of an interesting take on it Marty. I've never thought to to take into consideration whether they know they mouse cant get too far in the tank. But at least with Sistrurus It wouldn't matter too much since they locate it by scent after it dies
JT
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RE: Venom release of young snakes
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by venomgland on June 18, 2012
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Ive read because baby snakes don't have as much venom as adult snakes do. If you do get bit and venomated. It's better to get bit by a baby snake then an adult just because baby snakes will inject you with less venom then an adult will. I've also read that adult snakes are better at controling there venom like posts above.. Just do yourself a favor and don't do anything that puts you indanger of being bit so you don't have to find out first hand....
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