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RE: USARK
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by KaouthiaKeeper on August 1, 2012
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This is the problem with America today. You had a series on concerns about USARK and a series of suggestions on how to make it better. But instead of taking the INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY of just contacting them and finding out for yourself you had to wine and cry until someone else did it for you. If you think USARK would be better off it had a news letter, then call them up and tell them that you want to start writing a newsletter for them. Get involved, don't just wine and cry about how they are not perfect while they are out their fighting for your rights. If you don't want to be bothered then shut up and be happy that at least someone else out there gives enough of a F*** to dedicate their lives to an organization that stands up for your rights. You are the antithesis to individual responsibility and wouldn't understand it if it hit you on your head. “The NRA sends me a news letter," oh wow, that's cool, and do they wipe your ass for you too? You’re the exact type that shouldn't have exotic snakes. What are you going to do if one day an accident happens - blame everyone else? Try to get them banned so that others don't make your mistake? Tell people how you learned your lesson that you’re not responsible enough to keep exotic animals so that their not either ? That's real cool.
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RE: USARK
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by Atheris333 on August 2, 2012
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This is copy pasted. Makes a lot of sense though. Just saying.
with the ohio bill s310 passing yesterday i figured it was time for another rant. i dont blame usark for the bill passing but after the whole zainville terry tompson issue, usark, pijac and max from max pets met with a lot of politicians in ohio pushing usarks bmp's. if you dont know what they are heres a link http://www.usark.org/uploads/USARK Model Reptiles.pdf this did not help the situation. and now the only way we can probably defeat this bill is in a court room. so usark is out. they are not willing to walk into a court room or engage in litigation. usark is a trade organization. a trade organization purpose is to push the agenda of an industry and thats all. but what is the industries agenda and is usark representing the industry fairly as a whole or are they only representing the special intrust of a few. gary bagnell (zoo med) is the largest contributing member of usark. his donations represent 1/3 of usarks total annual revenue. and because of his sizable donation gary bagnell sits as the head chair of usarks board and gary also has another person from zoo meds on the board. gary bagnell sells pet store stuff. if your a serious hobbyist chances are you dont own any of the produces gary bagnell sells. also gary bagnell reportedly said he feels the large constrictors are a pariah in the industry. you need to ask yourself what are the implications of the head chair of the board of the organization thats supposed to be fighting for all are rights, equally, when he feels large constrictors are something we as an industry should shun and avoid. two more question that must be ask is why as an industry did we put so much faith in andrew wyatt and usark when no one had ever heard of the guy prior to usark, and two why do we still put so much faith in andrew and usark when we have seen the out come of his methods. to answer the first question. it was marketing. usark was marketed very well as the savoir of the industry. we were told it was going to do what ever was necessary to fight for our rights. even file a class action lawsuit if need be. here are two links where wyatt talks about law suits. in one he ask for money for the lawsuit. this was in 2011. he said he thought it was going to be necessary to file a lawsuit for the python ban. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w9_CNAlHIc&feature=share http://reptilelivingroom.com/2011/01/andrew-wyatt-answers-what-is-usark/ so the question everyone should be asking is. where did the money go. wyatt said they were putting together a lawsuit and asked for donations for it. people then donated and when it was time to file the lawsuit the money had already been spent. why didnt the reptile industry hold wyatt accountable for this. the second question. why do we still have some much faith in wyatt and usark. i think basically because one on knows what else to do. with people having so much invested in usark wyatt they dont want to admit its not working. plus usark gives people hope, but it gives people the wrong kind of hope. usark has lead people to believe that all they need to do is give money to usark and usark will solve all their problems for them. this is a lie. usark cant be everywhere at once. and with all their money already spent they cant afford to walk into a court room. a lot more people are becoming skeptical of wyatt and usark. and questioning how much wyatt is making. i believe the figure is $60,000 or $80,000 a year. and wyatt defends this by comparing it to what wyane pacelle makes. which is $250,000 a year. heres the big difference. wyane pacelles organization bring in on average $100,000,000 a year. when you break down the numbers wyane gets paid 1/4 of 1% of his organizations annual income. usark bring in on average $300,000. so wyatt making 60 or 80 g's a year come around 30% of usrks total annual income. in terms of percentages to each organizations annual revenue wyatt makes a lot more then pacelle. plus husu at least has the decency to pretend to be a non profit and file as a 501c3. usarks filing as a for profit. i believe as a LLC. so now lets look at the implication of usark filing as a LLC or as any for profit organization. but first ask yourself. what makes usrk necessary. obviously anti reptile and amphibian legislation. and what would be the result if all anti reptile and amphibian legislation went away. there would be no need for usark. that is undeniable. ok now ask yourself. what is the basic rule for any business that wants to remain in business. its to make money. now as i stated before whats is the business of usark. its fighting anti reptile and amphibian legislation. so if wyatt wants to continue to make his 60 or 80 g's or whatever each and every year he needs anti reptile and amphibian legislation to fight. that can not be denied. so if you need anti reptile and amphibian legislation to stay in business, but at the same time its your job to fight and stop it, how do you do that without putting yourself out of work. easy. you let bill pass committees and them lobby senators and governors to hold the bill until the end of the session so they die. but then the bill is just reintroduced at the beginning of the next session. so it becomes a never ending fight.
let move on for a bit and look at the python ban. and how it happened. usark got that ban put on hold for two or three years with their lobbying methods. not only to it prevent it from taking affect but with it being reintroduced over and over. it was a great way to raise money. and what happened they eventually. they by passe the judicial process and did a rule change, so the only way to stop it would be with a lawsuit, but he people doing the rule change knew usark and pijac wouldnt file a lawsuit.
now for all you pro compromise people. the python ban is a perfect example of wyatts pro compromise methods. and if you think 4 out of 5 wasnt a direct result of wyatts methods you are only lying to yourselves. usark came out the day the ban was announced and claimed a victory. wyatt even sent bob clark a text saying we won, that day. that should give you a clue as to how out of touch wyatt is with the industry he claims to represent. to send a text saying we won to the person that built his career mostly around burms, the day they got ban is idiotic.
it was only after the uproar from the industry that usark back peddled and acted like they had nothing to do with it.
now take a look at where we are at today since the python ban was announced. you might remember nerds video and what Kevin said the states are going to start doing. if you forgot or didnt watch the video heres a link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwdToAYhoZg&feature=player_embedded
he was right. so far PA has had 3 anti reptile and amphibians bill proposed this year. plus i just found out that there will be a bill next year here in PA to ban large constrictors.
CT passed a bill that was 13 pages of animals that you can no longer own as private individuals. WITH NO GRANDFATHER CLAUSE. many reptiles and amphibians are listed. this law was passed as a rule change. much like the python ban. and can only be overturn in court. so that means usark will be doing nothing about it.
ohio just passed the most extensive anti animal bill ever written yesterday.
WV almost did the same.
IL almost passed a bill that was written by a herpetologist named scott ballard that works for Il DRN, but for some reason wyatt and usark told everyone to be against it and it worked. so thanks to wyatt and his followers you still cant own any snakes over 15ft, no venomous or rear fanged in Il. including hognoses. that would have all changed and allow for the private ownership of any size large constrictors and a permit system for some venomous and hognoses and so on would be legally kept with no permit.
SC had some very anti animal legislation. funny enough it couldnt go anywhere because of the usark like bmp's that it just happened to have in it. i talked to the DRN guy down there about and he said. you cant have a bill to ban all exotics except reptiles and amphibians.
and many more issues in other states. and this is what we have to show for all of wyatts hard work.
the proof of efficacy or lack there of for any system put in place is the end result of that system in action. we have seen usark and the methods it employs in action and the results are in. they are failing miserably. we are loosing are right both on the state and federal level. so why is everyone still supporting them and giving them money. we know where the money is going. almost 1/3 is going into wyatts pockets. 1/2 is going to lobbying thats getting us nowhere and the rest is being spent on hotels, airlines, and going to shows.
the way forward is lawsuits. here in PA we are putting together a small organization to deal with legislation on the state level. there will be 20 or30 of us all donating $50 to $100 to have an attorney on retainer. we have a lot of other plans, from working with the community by donating are time and efforts to help the spca's and local governments with any reptile and amphibian related issues that might come up, to having people to go out and doing educational events. we believe this is the way forward. and i would recommend you all do the same in your states. do not sit back and wait for someone else to solve your problems for you.
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RE: USARK
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by KaouthiaKeeper on August 6, 2012
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Atheris that is a really great post. I couldn't have said better myself. Although, to USARK's credit they are an effective means of damage control, and without them there is a very good chance that all pythons would have been banned. However, with that said, I 100% percent agree with that post. I have long said to my fellow herpers that the best offense is a strong defense and that we need to start suing these states for making these laws. Slugging it out in court is the only way to stop the onslaught headed are way. And although I do think that USARK is good for what it is which is mainly a lobbying group that tries stomp out invasive laws before they happen I also 100% agree that we need something more like an ACLU type which will just sue, and sue, and sue, for our rights until they get their way. I am 100% in on your lawsuit although we are definitely going to need to donate way more money to win. Especially in federal court $3,000.00 is not going to cut. I say it's going to be more like $15,000.00 - $25,000.00 to win. Maybe about $5,000.00 - $10,000.00 to win on the state level. We need excellent lawyers because the initial case is going to be essential and will start a judicial precedent. If we lose other judges may be tempted to rule the same way and we could ruin it for everyone else. I am sure we can get a few pet shops on board and make that money in no time. If you are really serious about this contact me ASAP I am actually going to law school in January and have been contemplating really good legal strategies for taking these laws down and stopping the maniacs at the Human Society in their tracks. Who knows, maybe with some persuasiveness we may even be able to get USARK on board. The economy is bad right now this is a really good time to get small business owners involved. Great idea. Email me.
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RE: USARK
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by MiamiCracker on August 8, 2012
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@~~vanerka~~~~~First off....sorry.......
second~ I have heard alot of people complain about usark also. From what I heard, alot of people were pissed at the "python ban" going through and they were saying usark didn't do much to stop it. But after it went through, usark started saying "we need your money to repeal this ban", and alot of people were just wondering what they were doing the whole time leading up to the ban, and since they didn't do much to begin with, what have they been doing with all the money they had been getting. At least that's what I heard from people, and read on other boards.
And your right, every "advocacy group" that I belong to sends out (at least) a quarterly letting it's members know what they are doing with monies collected.
and for future reference....if you ask a question and all you get is guff from trolls....just don't engage them ....that's what they live for......ijs
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RE: USARK
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by vanerka on August 10, 2012
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trey john and phill
Trey, thanks for posting that. You just proved my point with that post I have no idea why john is agreeing. He is stating that the reason behind it all is crooked. Yes other things need to be done on a more local basis. But when more things can be accomplished at a higher level (like congress) They should be. And when it comes to fighting bans in other states. Il being mine,
"IL almost passed a bill that was written by a herpetologist named scott ballard that works for Il DRN, but for some reason wyatt and usark told everyone to be against it and it worked. so thanks to wyatt and his followers you still cant own any snakes over 15ft, no venomous or rear fanged in Il. including hognoses. that would have all changed and allow for the private ownership of any size large constrictors and a permit system for some venomous and hognoses and so on would be legally kept with no permit."
And for the record current IL laws state that nothing "potentially lethal" can be kept under reptiles. However its unenforced. I have quite a few friends that have large constrictors, 15'+. They arent harassed by dnr whatsoever. But it would have been nice to have things changed up in this state. So John do I wipe my ass with newsletters. no, i cant say i do. But Your upset because you simply follow an organization you donate to through other people and a website that requires more frequent updates. Congrats.
The response Trey had was productive and I do appreciate it, I actually learned something. John on the otherhand is a tool. And simply continued questioning my motive for my post. And Phil, Thanks for the support against a troll, I appreciate it. Cuz Im not the only one asking these questions and forming the same conclusions about them as Trey. That was what I figured. Is a crooked system that creates a reason for an organization to fight issues that wouldnt otherwise exist without the interjections from them, or issues federally that could have been changed or minimalized in the past. Which in my opinion is what Trey was trying to explain. And John I in no way shape or form was attacking the organization, just curious because things that have been said and brought up within ear shot. I was raising an uninformed question which is what people do on this site, if you dont like it butt out.
So thanks again to Trey and Phil input appreciated, Eric
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