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southern pacific rattlesnake toxicity
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by Parcelmouth on August 16, 2003
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I have heard a few arguments about the C.v.helleri venom.I believe BGF hade a refrence to this on one of his posts in the "bites and anaphalactic shock"question.I have been told that this particular species is going thru a"tweaking"of venom toxicity and streanth.This is due do there prey items(ground squirrels)have been becoming more and more immune to the effects of the venom.Thus the snake must also evolve a stronger more potent venom to kill and eat.It makes good sense from a survival of the fittest point of view.I know that the one time I gave my baby helleri live feed it droped that little mouse faster than any snake I have ever seen before.No running around no staggering through the enclosure.The mouse litterally stopped,and layed down after being struck.The snake was starting to eat the mouse less than 1 minute after he struck it.I understand that treatment of helleri bites is also becoming more complicated as well.Would anyone be so kind as to offer a little more detailed description of this evolutionary process? What exactly is changing in the C.v. helleri venomand why?What are the problems and complications arrising in treatment of this particular species in a human bite and what is being done to counter them?Thanks all for your responses.Hope you guys are having fun in Daytona,try and leave some snakes for the rest of us.Thanks J.S.
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RE: southern pacific rattlesnake toxicity
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by cottonmouth on August 16, 2003
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I don't know much about venom evolution, but the best of the best say there is an arms race and the Southern Pacific Rattler is leading the way.
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RE: southern pacific rattlesnake toxicity
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by cottonmouth on August 16, 2003
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I think it might have started with some of the South American Rattlers and has worked it's way up north starting with the Mojave.
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RE: southern pacific rattlesnake toxicity
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by TomT on August 16, 2003
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I think it is a more likely scenerio that there has been no change in the venom of any rattlesnake in a very long time. We are just beginning to understand the composition of snake venom and in all likelyhood there are many things left to learn.
As far as "potent" venom goes, I have never seen a snake drop a rat faster than a captive bred Timber rattlesnake I kept for a while. I used to time (literally) how long it took for this snake's bite to kill a mouse. The fastest I ever saw it kill a mouse was immediately..... the mouse dropped dead in its tracks with NO MOVEMENT after the bite. I attribute it to good aim and the fact that some snakes just inject more venom on average than others. Averages are, afterall, the sum of all variables divided by the number of those variables... so "average" means that some are above the mean and others below the mean.....
I wouldn't be too worried about the evolution of a species in one human lifetime..... Individuals within a given locality have differences, and it just makes sense that the effectiveness of venom will vary within a population as well... I believe it has been documented that venom even changes in the individual over the course of that snake's life... and that venom composition is heriditary.... so, if one bloodline has a particularly effective venom for the prey in the area in which it lives, the tendancy would be for that bloodline to enjoy a higher rate of succes in securing food... much like the Darwinian model for finches.... there really doesn't seem to be anything unusual at work in rattlesnake populations as it relates to venom composition that I can see.
I would like to hear BGF's view on this too....
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RE: southern pacific rattlesnake toxicity
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by Wollers on August 16, 2003
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I agree there is still a lot to be learned about venom
toxcity in our western rattlesnake species. Still, when it comes to Crotalus, its the volume of venom that a particular species is capable of delivering;
not how potent it is. EDB's and WDB's are the most likely to deliver a fatal bite. I have observed no noticable "killing time" advantage in any of my species of Rattlesnakes over the years. Twice I have witnessed a mouse dropping in its tracks right after receiving a bite. One from a sm. Canebrake and the other a S. Copperhead, so there you go.
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RE: southern pacific rattlesnake toxicity
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by elapid62 on August 18, 2003
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This is a little off the subject But The fastest kills I have seen was from a s.copperhead. (Dead Right Now)
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