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Thoughts on the "My first hot should be..&quo
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by Willicat on July 26, 2013
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Greetings!!!
I have zero hots and have zero desire to have one even though they are fasinating.
So with that being said, can I be painfully honest?
No offense intended to anyone.
Some of your guys are giving terrible advice and act very elitist when someone ask about a first hot.
1) Someone ask you what a good beginner hot is, give them constructive advice. More often than not everyone chimes in with the "There is no beginer hot. You are not qualified if you even ask this, etc..."
How about actually telling them how YOU started, what you did, what your first hot was and why you chose that exact snake and how you prepaired yourself for that challenge and how you house it and how it reacts to different stimuli?
2) Getting a black racer to prepair for a cobra is like watching a porn to learn about sex. That advice is going to get some 16 year old who read this bit by a mamba.
3) Anyone ever think that maybe, just maybe being consistant in your answers and being helpful in a constructive way may just help someone not buy a hot or get bit or get better training or just drop the idea all together?
Do you actually realize people think you guys are experts and when a question is asked and they see the exerts bickering back and forth with why the other one is wrong and "do this...No do that.." It sends a confusing message. Especially to younger potential handlers. because they will end up with a hot no matter what.
4) Venomoids...Is it mutilation if done the right way?
I got my dog fixed and I got my cat fixed. Is that mutilation? Fixed is a fancy way of saying I had someone surgically remove their testicles and ovaries. When put like that it sounds very inhumaine. But it is a nesscessary evil. Maybe there is a place for venomiods, you just have to step back and think. I could be wrong.
5) Flaming on threads of this magnitude can be dangerous as under educated people may not be able understand and take everything at face value.
So with this being said, I have learned a lot about snakes for some very knowledgable people on this board. keep up the great work
Cheers
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RE: Thoughts on the "My first hot should be..
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by andrewhopkins on July 26, 2013
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You can cry elitism all you want. It seems to be a popular pejorative description by newcomers who has trouble understanding and fitting within the venomous culture. What one doesn't understand as an outsider is that a part of our community's responsibility is proper gatekeeping. If you come here after owning some ball pythons or cornsnakes and conduct yourself in an immature way that shows you're not even near the experience level you ought to be when you begin to peak interest in venomous, we reserve the right to be brutally honest. I don't believe our best interest is to protect delicate feelings of unknown entities; especially in way that's not conducive to our goal.
1) The problem with the term "beginner" venomous is that is connotes a feeling of safety to those who are exactly beginner keepers.
2) I do perceive the "humor" value in your statement, albeit a quite poor analogy. Have you owned a black racer then a subsequent cobra? I am unsure if you are the right person to make this judgment if you've reportedly never had a venomous snake.
3) There is nothing wrong with having a discussion, even amongst likeminded and similarly experienced keepers. Not one particular person is a source of complete and accurate information at all times. If someone is becoming confused in midst of a debate, they are to draw their most intelligent conclusion. I also hope that these newcomers don't try to learn everything about venomous keeping on a single webpage on the internet.
4) That's an age-old subjective question. In my opinion, venomous snakes that's been surgically altered to serve the purpose of education has no merit. It's often utilized by keepers who aren't ready to take on a venomous snake, but still want to experience the novelty of a seemingly dangerous creature or used by incompetent institutions to portray the message that "not all snakes are out to get us"; when in fact they had to be rendered harmless. Another problem is that even those who are qualified/licensed practitioners performing these surgeries make mistakes. Their venom glands have been known to grow back in both elapids and vipers. There was a 'Venomoid Inc' Eastern Diamondback who produced venom out of one gland as a recent example. At the end of the day, human life is valued greater than those of venomous snakes, so people continue to justify keeping venomoids. They have found a place in those whose sense of entitlement is greater than their respect for nature.
5) Unfortunately, people who come in here with acting like a little kid while not understand the context may get huffy and puffy. When their feet stops hurting from repeatedly stomping on the floor, they may have a better understanding of what they're up against.
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RE: Thoughts on the "My first hot should be..
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by wamartin67 on July 26, 2013
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@Willicat: you're obviously a troll so find somewhere else to do your trolling. If you have no desire to own a venomous snake then this post is no more than an attempt to start a debate for your own entertainment. You have nothing filled out on your profile so you definitely don't know the rules of this site and most likely when one of the moderators reads your post and sees you have no profile info you will be gone.
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RE: Thoughts on the "My first hot should be..
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by choppergreg74 on July 26, 2013
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If you have no hots and have no interest in working with them. Why are you on a venomous website? Since I have no interest in keeping ball pythons maybe I should go start trouble on a ball python forum?? By the way I saw in the classifieds a tipan with removable training wheels if anyone is interested.
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RE: Thoughts on the "My first hot should be..
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by Willicat on July 29, 2013
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Definitley not a troll and not looking to unsettle anyone. A couple of questions that were fairly answered.
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RE: Thoughts on the "My first hot should be..
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by mike_anthony on July 30, 2013
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To answer a few of your questions, it really depends on many factors. For example, crotalids behave much differently than elapids, thus they must be handled differently. There is no universal advice on how to properly handle a venomous reptile due to this fact. In fact, some individuals within the same aggregate can display differing behaviors altogether, ie;, aggression etc.. One of the most important things one can do is to always respect the animal for what it is...venomous and possibly deadly. You must always use the correct tools, never become complacent, never tend to your collection if distracted or tired, always remove and secure the snake in a separate container if you must place your hands inside their enclosure, and treat each snake as if it will attempt to bite you at every opportunity.
I completely agree with you about the "elitist" attitudes exhibited by many venomous keepers. I personally know several, some of whom are quite famous in the herp community. The one thing they all share in common is the fact that they themselves have been bitten, most on multiple occasions. The accounts of their bite stories are littered with irresponsible decisions which ultimately led to each bite. I once witnessed a well-known and respected AZA holder place his hand into the cage of a D. russelii and lift up its hide box so I could view it. This is very irresponsible and unprofessional behavior. Ironically, he did this as he was telling me how the "average Joe" is too irresponsible to own such a snake. He was bitten on the thumb one month later while removing a hide box from a C. sistrurus in the same manner. That was his fourth bite.
Afterwards, I had to question exactly who is truly the responsible keeper: the guy who has become too comfortable working with hots and has lost respect for the capability of these animals, or the guy who is new to hots and has a healthy fear of the potential for being bitten, and therefore remains cautious? In my opinion, anyone who has been bitten should not be allowed to own hots afterwards, period. There is no room for preventable accidents in this field.
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RE: Thoughts on the "My first hot should be..
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by agkistrodude on August 3, 2013
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Mike, You had a good post until the 2nd to last sentence. I went 33 years before my bite. I should be banned from keeping now? I see no sense at all in that. I knew and accepted the risk all along, made a mistake and paid for it. Both physically and financially. I'll decide when I stop keeping. Take care, Marty
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RE: Thoughts on the "My first hot should be..
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by CHRIS on August 4, 2013
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If i was involved in à car accident should i give up my car?
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RE: Thoughts on the "My first hot should be..
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by Willicat on August 6, 2013
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What he is saying is that experience sometimes breeds complacency.
I work for a utility company, which is also a very structured work enviornment (Like owning Hots) and the voltages of transmission and distribution equipment range from 13.8-345kv. So coming in to contact with an electric arc is violent and can lead to 3rd degree burns and/or loss of life.
Even with OSHA regulations and company procedures in place people every so often take it for granted and do not double check their operating orders or skip logical steps where 99 out of 100 times you will be okay but that one time is the big one.
Average experience of someone who gets bruned from compacency and recieves the unwanted trip to the Cornell Burn Unit has 20+ years experience. Not the newer guys.
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