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"Snake bite Teachers wanted "
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by Fabian on February 29, 2004
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No, this is not a place to come to teach how to get bite by a venomous snake. But my group is a place to come to help teach others, or learn about what happens to people when they do receive a bite from a venomous snake.
I know a lot of people that have asked about venomous snake bites, and this forum, as good as it is on teaching others about the safe handling, and keeping of venomous snakes does not think that the information about the bites them self's are something that should be discussed openly. So come to my site if you would like to discuss your snake bite to others or just learn about what happens when someone is bitten by a venomous snake. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snake_venom_and_body
Thank you,
Fabian Lee, Ihrke
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RE: "Snake bite Teachers wanted "
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by Kristen on March 4, 2004
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There is lots of information on envenomations published by real doctors. You should not base your knowledge on information posted on the web because it is probably not peer reviewed. Most people will not post on how to treat snakebite because of legal problems that can develop like illegally practicing medicine. As far as teaching about venoms that is what college and peer reviewed books are for. Don't take short cuts and call it research or science. I went to your site. What you are doing reflects badly on venomous keepers . The general public have enough problems with people keeping venomous reptiles but throw in the non science of self injecting and you add fuel to the fire. As stated here before the risks out weigh the benefits and real researchers have shown that along time ago. Check out your herp history for papers by Dr. Sherman Minton and many others. The best medical care is a good doctor and a supply of antisera. Better yet is to not get bitten in the first place. Extracting venom is a limited market and should not be done in your basement. Also as far as research on venoms fractions of the venoms are used not whole raw venom. On the website you state that you do not get ill anymore. This has nothing to do with venom because snakes are immune to their own venom but become
ill and have been know to develop cancer.
Kids read this nonscience and often believe that it is real science.
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RE: "Snake bite Teachers wanted "
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by Fabian on March 5, 2004
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Kristen, Thank god for freedom of speech. I am not teaching anyone how to treat snake bites. and I am not teaching anyone how to do anything. My group is for others to come and learn about others and there snakes bites and read about how a few people are helping save there own life's by injecting venom a little at a time to build up an immunity to the venoms of the venomous snakes they keep. Maybe because they ether can not take antivenin, or they what to help save there own life by building some immunity to the venoms of the snakes they work with. You say you looked at my site ? well you speak as if you did not read anything. and if it were not for people like Bill Haast, and Tim Friede I feel there would be a lot more deaths from snake bites that you see now. I can name several including myself that with out the venom injections would have more than likely been dead from a bite they have received. so I have a hard time seeing your point on any of this. And we are by far sending out any bad messages making it bad on the venomous snake keepers or kids that read this. I think they have a right to see our work to. I have never placed any bad press on any keepers or myself.
Thank you for your reply, even if I do not agree with anything you said.
Fabian Ihrke
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RE: "Snake bite Teachers wanted "
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by Kristen on March 5, 2004
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I work at one of the largest venom labs in the USA. I will say Haast has provided venom for antisera but no real lives(40 years ago his blood was supposed to have been used as antisrea but there is no proof whether it or life support saved the victims. Nowadays no doctor would risk his living on such voodoo science) have been saved by his injections and he has been on life support many times and lost tissue. We are asked often by doctors and law enforcement to help with envenomations and treatment. Mr Freide and other self injected individuals are just doing voodoo science and have not saved lives by self injecting or published any peer reviewed proof of their and your claims.
Your right to free speech ends when you do harm to others. You are doing harm to those that believe your
so called science.I hope that most kids and adults are smart enough to question your science.
Learn from real scientist. Your website also has several papers you have taken off the net. If you read them closely you will see that our lab provided alot of the venoms used in some of the studies.
Self injecting is for ego only and not science. I have been working with 1000 plus venomous animals for over
6 years and don't know everything. Neither does my boss who has been extracting venom for over 28 years.But he does over 600 to 1000 extractions a week and knows that self injecting is dangerous; the risks out weigh the benefits. He has reviewed many snakebite deaths and some were self injecting.
You are probably a nice person but think of the kids and law makers that are watching you.
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RE: "Snake bite Teachers wanted "
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by Fabian on March 5, 2004
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Kristen, I have seen a lot of posts on this site about doing self injections. But I have not seen any new laws passed that were the results of someone doing, or talking about doing injection. 99 % of the press on Bill Haast has been very good. Most of it is of all the extreme effort he has put forth in his venom research. I do not feel he has put any bad press on any venomous snake keepers. as you suggest.
I do how ever think that he has done a world of good for the venomous snake keepers. And his work is well needed. I was sorry to learn a few days ago that he is now not doing much if any venom research anymore. It is my understanding that he is only extracting venom now. I know that most all the research that is being done now a days is not being done on the hole venom, but just parts of each venom. That is great news because I think that means that many new life saving drugs can now be made from it. And I am in that respected way out of my league in research. As you say, that would put me in the voodoo science area. I am not saying I am doing any true scientific research. I am doing nothing more than experimenting with the affects of the venom for myself. I have had a lot of people asking me questions about it and that is why I started the yahoo group. I would like to ask you something ?? If I wanted to learn about some of the work being done with venom and the new drugs, how could I find information on it ?
Thank you for your replies.
Fabian Ihrke
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RE: "Snake bite Teachers wanted "
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by Kristen on March 6, 2004
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For info on research try Toxicon and also SSAR.
Also milking snakes can lead to high death rates as has been shown in the past so extraction should be limited to real research. Our lab uses mainly captive born animals and recieves animals from zoos because of our husbandry history of animals living for over 20 years and reproducing on venom production line. If we had to put tubes in our snakes to force feed them they would not live long because of stress this has been shown, to be true at other venom labs that use this old stressful techinque. I will not be involved with abusing any animal so believe that extraction should be limited. Also as far as laws there are FDA laws just call them and ask if you can sell or buy venom for self injection or any human research. You can milk your own snakes and inject but if someone helps you by providing venom , needles or giving you a shot they are liable and it is not legal to sell venom for use as medicine. Those that are have just not been found yet. Most venom producers would not sell knowing you were going to break a law that is why we screen all our buyers.
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RE: "Snake bite Teachers wanted "
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by Fabian on March 6, 2004
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Kristen,
Thank you. I love my snakes and care for them very well. I do extract venom from time to time, but for what I do it does not take much venom, there for my snakes may only have one, or two milking before I have a new snakes to use. And I am very slow and gentle in milking them. I do not force venom from there glades. what ever they give me is what I take.
As far as buying venom from others for this. I would never want to get any of my friends in trouble, so I will only use my own venomous. I have had a lot of medical problems in the past and I truly feel that my injections have helped me over come a lot of them. I Do feel very strongly about the healing power of venom. Well anyway, Thank you for getting back to me with the info on research sites.
Best wishes,
Fabian Ihrke
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RE: "Snake bite Teachers wanted "
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by stopgetinpopped on March 9, 2004
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As far as Mr. Haast goes, irregardeless of the quote of a million snakes
milked.. over 200 venomous snake bites is far too many. thats averaging
give or take 4 serious envenomations per year. That is not a very good
average. I'm not saying anything against him personally the point I have
tried to make to you and Mr. Friede and others is this. If you are
trying to save your own skin, why not practice safe handling techniques?
And not get bit.You've been bitten 17 times? Is that what I remember?
Anyway, why not spend your time with someone that is good at handling
venomous snakes ( which means not getting bitten)(or few bites)
Ask any professional about his/her bites, they will tell you what they did wrong and alter their technique slightly to accomidate for that mistake. Ask a Venom injector about their bites and they say with a slur....
"Hell. I've had hunerds o' bites, I dun't care.
Certainly, venomous bites happen, and just because you have been bitten
does not mean you are bad at what you do. It just means that some of the
techniques used could be improved.It would be much different in my
opinion if the self injectors practiced safe handling techniques with
tools etc. At least this way, you are showing the people you are asking
to respect you, that you are not doing this for you ego. Unfortunately,
the people that self inject are doing this for ego.Mr. Haast was a
showman and a damn good one at that.....Mr. Friede once quoted a
newspaper article "this is just my service to humanity"No this is no
service to humanity.Stop claiming this as science or education, call it
self experimentation. And please until some serious science has been
published, through you or others, please stop telling children that this
is the answer. It is not.
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RE: "Snake bite Teachers wanted "
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by Fabian on March 9, 2004
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stopgetinpopped,
I am a voodoo snake venom researcher. (VOODOO). That to me means I am doing it like a witch doctor would do it. And I am by far telling any kids to do this. I am doing it because I can not have antivenin. And it does, and has saved my life a few times. (I am sure of that) As far as going and learning from someone else. "HA" I have yet to see very many venomous snake keepers that would do that...
Most do not have the insurance for something like that. And I do not feel that tools are the way to go all the time ether. They hurt the snakes a lot more than people ever say. I know I have seen a fair amount of it. So there is good, and bad to everything you say.
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RE: "Snake bite Teachers wanted "
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by Kristen on March 9, 2004
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Sorry but if you have problems with antisera you can also develop problems with self injecting. Each persons body reacts differently but there are to many proteins ,and other substances in venom that we do not totally understand to think it is safer to self inject then get antisera under controled medical care. People have died from alleries to venoms so it is like playing with your life to self inject. Either get better at handling and be able to treat your allery to antisera or don't keep venomous snakes. You said in some of your past posted that you needed venom to inject . If your animals are not surviving long it may be because you are "milking" them. This is stress they do not need.
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