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RE: First snake?
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by sceniccityreptiles on September 30, 2004
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Ok, copperheads are responsible for most legitimate bites, I would concur with that. However, dry bites are considered legitimate bites. I said they are least likely to envenomate, not least likely to bite. They are also number one because they far and away out populate all other pit vipers. Per capita they are not the leading biter. CroFab is used to treat all North American pits, however, it is not having the best results with timber and blacktail rattlesnakes, but is working well on coppers. There has not been a copperhead death since the 1980’s and that death was caused by Dr Glass treating the bite with surgery and not AV. There are no recorded deaths since the advent of CroFab. If Minton’s worst bite was a copperhead, why did he survive that one and die from the boomer? I submit the bite that killed him was his worst. I think I covered all questions and my thoughts to the later posts.
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RE: First snake?
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by AquaHerp on September 30, 2004
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Dr. Minton did not die from snake bite. And I recall reading about a man dying from complications brought on by a copperhead bite right around a month ago. Allergic reaction, but death nonetheless.
The whole beginner hot snake issue can be debated endlessly, no different than venomoids in that respect. But, I have said all I am going to on the subject. It's really not worth the time and aggrivation. I'm certainly not going to get drawn into an argument over "opinions". As long as it's not done in front of me, or you're under my responsibility, I truly couldn't care less what others do with their own collection.
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Chalk one up for the copperhead...
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by Buzztail1 on September 30, 2004
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Article attached below.
"beginner snakes" is a misleading name and one I personally disagree with. Copperheads are capable of killing people under the right circumstances.
Karl
Man dies from snake bite at creek in Loachapoka
Posted by: W von Papineäu at Thu Jun 24 07:05:05 2004
TIMES-DAILY (Florence, Alabama) 23 June 04 Man dies from snake bite at creek in Loachapoka
(AP): A man bitten on each hand by a copperhead snake last week at Saugahatchee Creek in Loachapoka has died.
Trent Leprettre, 31, of the Little Texas community in Macon County, who was bitten June 14, was taken off life support Sunday morning from complications arising from anaphylactic shock.
Family members said Leprettre had been swimming at the creek with his 9-year-old daughter, who went to get help after he was bitten.
"Someone called 911 and it didn't take long, about 20 to 30 minutes, to get to the hospital," said his mother-in-law, Gail Spradlin.
Leprettre's immediate symptoms were swelling in the throat and difficulty breathing. He later had to be revived after heart failure.
He was given medication to counter the snake poison, but family members said he was highly allergic to the venom.
Man dies from snake bite
PS For those who wish to be difficult for the sake of being difficult, the Copperhead in the article is clearly Agkistrodon and NOT the Australian snake of the same common name. KHB
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RE: First snake?
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by Phobos on October 1, 2004
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I keep hearing that CroFab is not so good for Timber bites. That's not the data from Crofab I've seen. Yes, The data is for mice, however, this is an acceptable comparison for humans. The lower the # the more effective it is against that snakes venom. According to this data it's very effective against Timbers but not so good against helleri & molossus.
Al
Table 2 from Crofab circular: ED50 Values for CroFab in Mice To determine the cross neutralizing ability of CroFab to protect mice from the lethal effects of venom from clinically
important species. Separate groups of mice were injected with increasing doses of CroFab pre-mixed with two LD50 of each venom tested. ED50 for each venom.
C. atrox 5
C. adamanteus 8
C. scutulatus 15
A. piscivorus 3
C. h. atricaudatus 7
C. v. helleri 122
C. m. molossus 25
A. c. contortrix 4
S. m. barbouri 7
C. h. horridus 6
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CroFab effectiveness
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by Buzztail1 on October 2, 2004
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Al,
here is what I have learned from talking to doctors who have used CroFab and people who have received CroFab:
CroFab does not stay in the system. In fact, its progress through the recipient's body is much faster than that of some venoms. This creates the problem that although the antivenin initially offsets the venom, it is washed out of the system before completely neutralizing the venom and the venom that is still left is free to continue affecting the victim creating the need for continuing antivenin therapy.
Please keep in mind that I am just a sailor by trade and not a doctor. Perhaps I am oversimplifying but that is basically how it was described to me.
Now because southeastern Timber populations have been documented to contain a complex mixture of venom types, it is possible that CroFab is less effective against their bites because the body metabolizes the antivenin before it can neutralize all the components of the venom. This particular effect may not show up in mouse tests due to the smaller size/venom ratio and the fact that mice may not metabolize the antivenin in the same way that humans do.
Just my thoughts based on some conversations with some people who know a lot more about it than me.
Karl
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RE: CroFab effectiveness
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by Chance on October 2, 2004
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Just to maybe help clear something up, the herpetologist killed by the boomslang was Karl Schmidt. And for the news article regarding the man dying from a copperhead bite, you'll probably want to contact Wes von Papineau on kingsnake.com and see if he can pull it up. It wasn't very long ago, maybe only a couple of months.
-Chance
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RE: CroFab effectiveness
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by Phobos on October 2, 2004
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Hi Karl:
Thanks for the input. Watching Dr. Sean Bush on venom ER use Crofab is where I've obtained most of what I know about the Antivenom. It does "clear" the body faster than the "Wyeth Sluge" with less wear-n-tear on the kidneys as you mentioned. Just one of the positives of using FaB fragments in highly refined serums. The smaller size of the proteins allow it to get into the tissues and neutralize venom there as well as in the blood stream.
On the downside, I heard but not confirmed by anyone yet. That there's some problems with CroFab being implicated in some "white blood cell" disorder days or weeks after administered. Please....this is just "here-say" and not factually confirmed yet.
W. Wuster has some very good papers on his website regarding the variations of venom compositions in a species across it's range. It seems that the type of prey being consumed modulates these differences. It really makes picking the right mix of venoms difficult a best. Mark O'Shea had a good progam on this type of problem with the Russells viper found on Sri Lanka. The Antivenom produced by Haffkine in India is mostly useless in this case.
Best,
Al
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