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Beded lizard keepers...
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by HERPNUT on September 28, 2000
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Hello there!!!
What do you guys think about the research study on DNA composition of the subspecie of H. horridum ?
Do you guys think that the Guatemalan Beaded lizard, H. h. charlesbogerti should become synonimous to the Black (Hypermelanistic) Mexican Beaded lizard, H. h. alvarezi?
According to the study both subspecie DNA is unidentifiable from one another!!!
I personaly think that both subspecie are fairly different considering that H. h. alvarezi becomes hypermelanistic and that H. h. charlesbogerti does not.
H. h. alvarezi live in small groups of usually one male and one to three females. H. h. charlesbogerti are most ofthen solitary outside the breeding season, and when find them you will only encuenter males.
And just the fact that there is about 250 miles of non-suitable habitat between the geographical ranges of H. h. charlesbogerti and H. h. alvarezi.
Luis.
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RE: Beded lizard keepers...
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by Goatsby on September 30, 2000
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Hey Luis, unfortunately I have not had the privelage to work with any horridum ssp. yet. But if what you say is true, then I dont know why they would consider merging the two subspecies. From the pictures I have seen, it does seem to me that the h.h.horridum does tend to have alot less coloration then the h.h.charlesborgati. If you have different (or any) pictures of the beadeds, I would love to see them! Talk to you soon.......Goatsby
email: goatsby462@hotmail.com
Goatsby's Place - Home of the Heloderm
http://www.goatsby.com
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RE: Beded lizard keepers...
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by HERPNUT on September 30, 2000
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Adam
The results of the research indicate that the DNA from blood samples from the Guatemalan Blue Beaded, H. h. charlesbogerti and the Black (melanistic) Mexican Beaded, H. h. alvarezi are geneticly identical.
The Rio Furete Mexican Beaded, H. h. exaperatum and the Mexican or Common Mexican Beaded, H. h. horridum are significantly different to remain a different subspecie.
See, the Rio Fuerte are the Beadeds with high yellows they almost look like Gilas with longer tails. This are the Northermost ranging Beadeds and share ground with sourtern populations of Gila Monsters.
The Mexican or Common Mexican Beadeds are mainly all black with only small dots of pale yellow.This are the most common Beadeds in the States.
The Black (melanistic) Mexican Beadeds as hatchilings and juveniles are identical in apareance to Common Mexican Beadeds. With age as they mature they go though an ontogenetic coloration change. Increasing melanores in the skin and turning completely black. This beadeds are unique because they occur in sub tropical montains from Chiapas Mexico.
Some wild specimens show rust coloration but it is likely from oxidation of ground adered to the skin.
The Guatemalan Blue Beadeds are different in my opinion because they occur in the Atlantic slope of Northeastern Guatemala. This subspecie has larger pale yellow spots. it is also identifiable becuse this Beadeds have 5 well defined bands arround their tails and because they do not have any pale yellow pigmentation before the fore legs.
This Subspecie is the one I am most familiar with and it seems to me to be semi-arboreal in habits, several of my captives prefer branches than the gound.
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RE: Beded lizard keepers...
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by Goatsby on October 1, 2000
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Wow! It sounds like you have done extensive research on beaded lizards! Where have you worked with them? In captivity and the wild? Sounds like a dream come true to me, you lucky boy.
Anyway, I have another question for you. It is my understanding that since I live in southern Florida, it makes conditions extremely difficult to breed gila monsters (I think this is due to lack of a winter to cool them down, but I cant say for sure). Now, my assumption is that some subspecie of beaded lizard come from a more tropical climate which would make Florida a comprable place in which to breed them.
Am I crazy or is this a sound idea? Also, if this is true, which subspecies should I keep an eye out for? What size cage do you keep you beadeds in? Do you keep them outdoors, and if you do does it seem beneficial to breeding?
And on another note, is there a difference in venom composition between the different subspecies, or even that of a gila monster?
I look forward to hearing from you! Goatsby
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RE: Beded lizard keepers...
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by HERPNUT on October 1, 2000
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Adam
Most of my experiences have been with captives. I curently live in Arizona and here I have found several wild Gila Monsters. Beadeds in the wild are seldom found. I have collected in Mexico and in Guatemala.
You find them when you least expected too. I have gone collecting for Beaded lizards in the right location, at the best time of the year and with exellent weather for Beadeds to be out and about, for two, three weeks strait and find nothing!!!
One time I found two Beadeds in a single trip!!! Within a single week!!! But, only that one time.
I honestly think that housing reptiles outdoors is to problematic for it to be practical. I have house most of my animals indoors with the only exception of large Varanid lizards.
For the breeding of any reptile proper acclimation, little disturbance and proper husbandry are essential.
For the breeding Helodermid lizards I would recomend indoor housing in order to provide proper husbandry. One of the things that one must learn about the species is their habits and habitat before making any husbandry decisions.
Gilas, Heloderma suspectum ssp. are found mainly in desert areas of the Southwest. However, they spend most of the time underground where the humidity levels are higher.
I have seen a lot of people house Gila Monsters in very dry enviroments, their animals spend considerable time soaking in their water dish. This is not normal!!! This animals are trying to regulate their body water balance.
I think that you can easily solve the Brumation, (cooling) period by making a well insulated box and using an air conditioning unit controled by a reliable thermostat. I do not know what temperature drop to in Florida. But, I doubt that you can provide the required cool temperatures otherwise.
On the other hand I do not think that the humidity in Florida would be a problem.
About Beaded lizards; the only subspecie that I think is from more tropical habitat is the Black Mexican Beaded, H. h. alvarezi. Black Mexican Beaded range is of a sub-tropical enviroment. I believe that in this subspecie as well as the Guatemalan subspecie breeding is triggered by the rainy season.
I particularly like the Rio Fuerte, H. h. exasperatum and the Guatemalan Blue H. h. charlesbogerti.
exasperatum is available while charlebogerti is almost imposible to acquire with legal documentation. Trust me, I know!!!
I am not keeping any Beadeds at this time. But, I was housing my H. h. charlesbogerti specimens indoors I do not think that housing Helodermids indoors in wooden cages measuring aproximately 6' wide, 3' deep, 4' high.
I do not think that housing Helodermids outdoors would be any more beneficial. Helodermids are not sun basking type lizards, they do not require UVA or UVB radiation. They may bask to reach optimun temperature, especially H. suspectum ssp. since they occur in areas with cooler night temperatures.
About Helodermid venom composition; it is said by many that venom of Beaded lizards, H. horridum ssp. is some what more toxic than the venom of Gila Monsters H. suspectum ssp. To tell you the truth I think it is because Beaded lizards attain larger size than Gila Monsters.
I have never been biten by Gilas!!! So, I could not compare. My recomendation in this topic is to avoid by all means getting biten. It is quite painful!!!
Well, I got to go. Chat with you all later!!!
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RE: Beded lizard keepers...
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by HERPNUT on October 2, 2000
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Hey Adam!!!
I hope that you can understand what I wrote earlier!!! I was getting quite tired and I wrote my thoughts out all mix up.
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RE: Beded lizard keepers...
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by Goatsby on October 2, 2000
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Made sense to me, and thanks for the advice. One day I plan on traveling down to the southwest to see if I can see some heloderms in the "wild".
Right now I am on the "10 year" heloderm plan. I am saving money to get a nice breeding group of Gilas / Beadeds within that timeframe. Although most people that have tried to breed heloderms down here have been unsucsessful for the most part, I still plan on giving it a try. And if it doesn't work I guess I will have to relocate:-)
You mentioned the "Guatamalen Blue" h.h.charlesborgeti, is this a color characteristic from a specific range or is this common for this subspecies? Do you have any pictures of your beadeds, or ones you saw in Mexico? I would love to see them if you do. Thanks again and talk to you soon...AdamG
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RE: Beaded lizard keepers...
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by HERPNUT on October 3, 2000
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Adam
I heard the term Blue Beaded for H. h. charlesbogerti a few years back while talking Beadeds with Jerry Marzec, a well known and respected herpetologist. I believe he is the founder of the Institute of Herpetoplogical Research.
I have photos of my specimens of the Guatemalan Blue Beadeds and some of Black Mexican Beadeds, unfortunaly the photos are in my mother's house in Guatemala City.
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RE: Beded lizard keepers...
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by SNAKEDUDEUK on October 29, 2000
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Herpnut, I am totally new to this forum & have just noticed that you are in Arizona, whereabouts?? I only ask as my Uncle lives in Tucson & I am intending to visit him next year so would like to find some info on good hunting grounds. I am based in the UK & was looking at heading over there in March next year, is this a good time of year to find herps, particularly Gilas or Beadeds??? If not when is the best time to find them?? I am probably limited next year due to a planned trip to Malaysia on a spider hunting trip, so I won't be able to get over at any other time, but who knows for the future??
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RE: Beded lizard keepers...
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by Chajbolay on May 28, 2002
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Hello>
I think i come to this forum late but i have a really big interest in the Heloderma horridum charlesbogerti. Im going to work in a field study of the real distribution and actual status of the population of heloderma horridum charlesbogerti. This is going to be my thesis work. Im a Guatemalan student of Biology at Universidad del Valle de Guatemala. I want to do morphometric studies of this subespecies and DNA studies of the specimens that are kept in captivity. If anyone have a specimen of H.H charlesbogerti please write to me.Thanks for all of you.
Daniel
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