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kind of new Canebrake paper
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by thedude on March 23, 2007
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Have not read it yet but it should provide some new insight on the whole timber v canebrake thing
Volume 20, Issue 1 (December 2006)
Herpetological Monographs
GEOGRAPHIC VARIATION IN THE MORPHOLOGY OF CROTALUS HORRIDUS (SERPENTES: VIPERIDAE)
John Allsteadt1,3, Alan H. Savitzky1,5, Christopher E. Petersen1,4, Dayanand N. Naik2
1 Department of Biological Sciences, Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA 23529, USA
2 Department of Mathematics and Statistics, Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA 23529, US
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RE: kind of new Canebrake paper
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by Cro on March 23, 2007
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It is an excellent paper. It is 63 pages long.
But all you really have to read is the last two sentances of the abstract, which state:
"The discordant patterns of variation among individual characters, overlapping patterns of coloration, and extensive overlap among the multivariate clusters collectively indicate that the putative zones of intergradation among recognized subpopulations of C. horridus are much broader than previously thought. Furthermore, because the general patterns of geographic variation are strongly clinal, our results support the conclusion that C. horridus is a single widespread species with variation too extensive and complex to be reflected by formal subspecific designations."
What they are saying is that the Timber Rattlesnake populations are widespread, overlapping, and diverse.
Because of this the justification for sub-species is not valid.
There is no contriversy among scientists on this issue, only among laymen and hobbyist. Perhaps after you read the study, you will understand why science will not let the Canebrake Rattlesnake survive as a sub-species.
The Canebrake Rattlesnake as a sub-species is dead.
Get used to it.
Go own kicking the dead horse if you want to, but it still will not get up again. Nore will the Stars and Barrs ever fly over the Nations Capital, and the South shall never rise again !
I know it is a Southern Thing.
When I see a low-land form of Timber Rattlesnake in the swamps of S. Georgia, I will still continue to call it a Canebrake Rattlesnake, if for no better reason than tradition. And I will know that fellow snake hunters will know what I mean when I say I found a Canebrake. But I will do that casually, and not when I am involved in trying to educate people.
But, if I write a scientific paper, or label a cage, or discuss the animal on the forum, or give an educational talk, I will be a proper Herpetologist, and follow the scientific rules.
I might, however, also call it something like a "Low-Land Form," or "the snake formerly known as a Canebrake Rattlesnake," LOL !
It's a Southern thing !
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: kind of new Canebrake paper
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by thedude on March 23, 2007
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No dead horse beatin' here! I just thought it was an interesting paper which shed light on the fact that the species' morphology is highly variable across its entire range. I am now curious as to why other snakes with similar (and more restricted) contiguous geographic distributions have valid subspecies (i.e. Agkistrodon, 5 for coppers and 3 for cottons)and C. horridus does not.
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RE: kind of new Canebrake paper
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by Cro on March 23, 2007
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Very good question, "Dude."
(man, how `bout putting your first name back in your profile, LOL)
The Agkistrodon complex is under-going a Major overhaul as we speak.
Both Cottonmouths and Copperheads are under review right now. Expect results to be published in 6 months to a year.
Don`t get too attached to the Scientific Names you have grown to know and love.
Five could become Three, and Three could become Two or One!
Rumor has it that some animals will be elevated to Species status, and others will be dropped.
Stay Tuned, `caus it is going to get interesting !
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: kind of new Canebrake paper
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by thedude on March 23, 2007
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Didn't notice that my name was not there!
Who's doing the research?
I remember a while back a VA fish and game biologist put me in contact w/ a researcher (can't remember his name, but he may have been from GA) to get some DNA from my study pop but he never wrote back - wonder if that was related to the studies you are refering to.
BTW I'm Vinnie
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RE: kind of new Canebrake paper
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by Cro on March 23, 2007
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Vinnie, good to have a name for you again !
I will get more information of the people doing the study for you soon.
It is my guess that folks were reluctant to tackle Agkistrodon, as long as one of the famous Herpetologists that one of these sub-species was named after, was still alive. It was a matter of respect.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: kind of new Canebrake paper
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by Buzztail1 on March 23, 2007
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I guess I kind of need to respond to this as I am known as a long-time proponent of Canebrake Rattlesnakes.
However, if you look back, it has been quite a few years since I have called them atricaudatus.
Here is my reasoning:
"atricaudatus" is a subspecific name which was discontinued through scientific study whether I agree with the results or not. Therefore "atricaudatus" is incorrect to use.
"Canebrake", on the other hand, is a "common name" which is NOT regulated by any commission or official entity. It is simply what laymen and local people call a particular animal. Therefore, as long as "regular folks" call the lowland specimens of Crotalus horridus by the colorful moniker of "Canebrake Rattlesnake", it will be a proper thing to call them.
Hence, I post pictures of Canebrake Rattlesnakes (Crotalus horridus) from the Southern portions of Georgia.
I guess it's just a southern thing ;-)
Karl
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RE: kind of new Canebrake paper
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by Cro on March 23, 2007
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Oh, while we are on the subject of Roger Conant, I would like to remind the herper who "borrowed" my autographed copy of Dr. Conant`s Field Guide, that it is time for it to be returned.
I know it is very cool, but it does not belong to you.
I sure hope it "appears" under my car seat, or on one of my book shelves very soon.
I am a very patient person, and am slow to anger, but, I do have my limits. You would not like to see me angry !
The consequences of keeping something that does not belong to you could turn out to be very long lasting and painfull.
Take care my "friend."
JohnZ
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RE: kind of new Canebrake paper
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by SimplySnakes on March 23, 2007
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John, I am interested in doing some site seeing in Georgia. You want to meet up somewhere and site see some rattlesnakes? How bout you Karl? :)
Paul
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