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RE: This Months Survey “Interesting Answers”
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by Rob_Carmichael on April 17, 2007
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We are all entitled to our opinions on this subject and it has been debated to death. All I'll say is that, IN MY OPINION, young people shouldn't own venomous reptiles (and by young, I am talking about minors but probably even beyond that) for a variety of reasons including:
- Resources: how many young people can afford to purchase antivenin....very few if any (heck, even older folks with full time jobs/careers have a difficult time). Do they have the resources to have specially built cages designed for venomous reptiles? Do these same young people have an emergency plan in place? Do the local authorities know that they are keeping hots? Do the neighbors know? Have they worked out an emergency plan with the nearest hospital including having access to A/V if they don't keep it (with the hospital's approval)? Very doubtful.
- Housing: how many young people have their own home?...very few, probably none. So, they are exposing their family members to great potential harm should there be an escape. If living in a condo/apt/town home they are exposing neighbors to great potential risks. Most family members don't share the same interest level in venomous herps as the person keeping them and it should never be under the same roof if the person keeping them is a young person.
- Maturity: Although there are some very mature and responsible young people, they just haven't put in enough years to fully understand what they are getting themselves in to. Are their brains still maturing? It depends on what expert you talk to....in my opinion, yes...absolutely (anyone who has raised teenagers will probably agree). One thing is for certain, there brains function entirely different from older adults....I have two teenagers and work with many through the schools that I visit and the kids who volunteer for me. Great folks but still learning, growing and developing good judgement. Many young folks have no grasp of the inherent dangers of working with venomous (and same goes for adults....most folks should not own venomous reptiles period). 90% of the confiscations that we deal with are with teenagers....hmmmm, coincidence or a trend of "I'll do what I want even if mommy and daddy say NO"....it's all abou ME and that's the reality of today's society (instant gratification). Even folks on this website will openly say that they'll break the law if a ban is imposed on them. That's messed up.
- Assistance: When young folks are working with hots, who is assisting them? Their buddies? Their parents who may have no experience? Unless they have an "aged" mentor working with them, they shouldn't be keeping them. What controls are in place?
- The IMPORTANT QUESTION: Is a young person, who has their entire life ahead of them and are still figuring out what is important to them willing to answer the question: "Are you willing to die for the simple sake of keeping a pet venomous reptile?" That's a loaded question but the answer, in my opinion, is fairly obvious. Sure, you can say the same thing about sports, walking down the street, etc. but keeping venomous snakes poses a far greater risk and is far more unpredictable than even keeping a gun (once again, it's ONLY my opinion).
This may sound like a knock to all of the young people of the world but nothing could be further from the truth. I do what I do as a professional herp person because of our youth. You can look at our brochures,websites, etc and you'll quickly see that all of my various conservation education programs are geared for young people. There just has to be some good old fashioned common sense infused into this argument and right now, it appears to be lacking.
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
www.thegrassisrattling.com
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RE: This Months Survey “Interesting Answers”
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by BobH on April 17, 2007
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I think the key here is that age really has little to do with one's ability and dedication to properly caring for a venomous reptile. Just like driving ability and drinking ability is probably also not highly correlated with age. There are just some convenient numbers picked out of the air that in a legal situation can be used. We all probably know "older than 18 or 21" that shouldn't drink, drive or own venomous reptiles! But I personally know some individuals that are responsible enough to do all three before they are "legal".
I do think that one key point that has not been discussed much is the number of animals kept. In my opinion as the number of animals kept increases, the danger of getting bitten or animal escaping increases logrhymthically. A lot of people can take care of one animal and always remember to not be in a hurry, have everything you need at hand and to always double check that you have adequately close the cage before leaving the room. It becomes increasingly difficult when the number of cages goes to 5 or 10 and astronomical when it gets to 25 or 50.
I do not want to say that I am avocating non adults keeping venomous snakes, but I agree with John that there are a few individuals that are certainly responsible enough to do it and be fully aware of the risks.
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RE: This Months Survey “Interesting Answers”
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by Cro on April 17, 2007
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When we look at this months survey, titled "At what age did you keep your first venomous snake?" we find that 67% of the site members who responded started keeping venomous snakes at age 20 or Younger.
We also see that 43% of the folks who responded started keeping venomous snakes Before the age of 18.
Perhaps that is why this site is Venomous Reptiles and not kingsnake ???
Younger reptile keepers do and will keep venomous snakes. It is the responsibility of the older keepers here to help them develope safe handling habits and to mentor them. It is also the responsibility of older keepers to let them know when they are in over their heads and handling ability.
They will keep venomous snakes wether we like it or not. Simply stating that they should not keep venomous snakes to some magic age is reached will not work. We can help by making sure that reptile shows do not sell venomous snakes to anyone under the age of 18. However, if the parent of a under-age keeper purchases the snake for them at a reptile show, then that parent is taking the responsibility of the purchase and their kids actions concerning owning that snake.
Teens who are reptile lovers will go out in the field, and will bring home venomous snakes, wether Rob approves of it or not. Look at most of the famous Herpetologists. They were all collecting venomous snakes at an early age.
Our job as a organization and as older herpers is to help educate and mentor other less experienced reptile keepers, no matter what their age. If they learn at a young age responsible reptile keeping, they are much less likely to create an incident that will hurt the hobby. If we ignore them, or just tell them they should not be keeping, this will do nothing other than drive their venomous keeping underground, and will create a much more dangerous situation, because the young keeper will be flying on his own.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: This Months Survey “Interesting Answers”
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by petra on April 17, 2007
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I agree with the part that it is important to educate.
I also believe that little kid is just not ready. Yes there are mature kids and those mature kids would not keep a hot because they are aware of the snake's potential. I have a 10 year old. He has a lot of pets and takes care of them very well. I do not help him with any and I never will because the day I would see them hungry or dirty he will loose them. And he does a great job.
However one day he found a black widow and was very excited about it. I would have let him keep it. When I asked him if he wants to keep it, he said I'd love to, but sooner or later I will forget to close the lid...
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RE: This Months Survey “Interesting Answers”
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by Cro on April 17, 2007
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Petra, I will agree with you that a 10 year old is too young to be keeping potentially deadly pets. Perhaps a cat or dog, or hermit crab or rodents, but not venomous animals at all.
If I had kids that had a passion for working with reptiles, and who had been mentored, and who showed the maturity, skill levels, attention to details, and Safety Consciousness necessicary for the keeping venomous snakes, I would allow the keeping of venomous snakes such as Copperheads, Pygmy Rattlesnakes, and small Cottonmouths around age 13 or 14. At age 15 or 16, they might step up to larger Rattlesnakes, and perhaps a Coral Snake, and possibly some of the Temple Vipers. Perhaps by age 17, or 18, some of exotic venomous snakes like Gaboon Vipers, or Eyelash Vipers would be allowed. It would involve earning the right by responsible keeping to moove up a step in what they would be allowed to keep. And it would also require that they keep their animals in a secure cages that are 100 % excape proof.
But again, this is just ball-park speculation, based on the many young keepers I have worked with over the years, and would have to be adjusted to fit the abilitys of the individual young person. I have met 20 and 40 year olds that were as dumb as a brick, and could not be trusted with keeping any venomous animals.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: This Months Survey “Interesting Answers”
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by FLVenom911 on April 18, 2007
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Yikes! Here in Florida, an animal control officer who has API and HSUS ties was actively trying to get FWC to make it mandatory for licensed VR keepers to have warning signs posted in their front yard, basically saying there are venomous reptiles on the property. Could you imagine the break ins? Or next thing you know, the AR activist would be protesting in front of your house. His idea is that it's the neighbors right to know what you have inside your house. Thankfully, FWC is a group of reasonable people who do support the legal and responsible citizens that own exotic dangerous animals and believed his "ideas" were extremely left field. Rob, perhaps you could clear your statement up regarding that your neighbors have a right to know, provided that you are doing it in a professional and legal manner.
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RE: This Months Survey “Interesting Answers”
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by milksnakegreg on April 18, 2007
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i have found a few copperheads this year and found that i love working w/them. i am good at catching them but i dont know if they would be safe for me to handle in a secure environment. does anyone know john fraser. would he be a good mentor to help me "increase' my herp handling skills.
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RE: This Months Survey “Interesting Answers”
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by RepFan on April 18, 2007
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Hello All,
Much has been said on this subject just as the keeping of venomous reptiles in general has been.
I echo John Zegel's and Dr. Herrington's comments as far as the young herpers are concerned. If we as a hobbyist community do not teach/educate the young herpers who will? T.V. personalities like Austin Stevens? I hope not! We as a site members owe it to ourselves to help in mentoring these young herpers if we care about keeping venomous. I am not at all saying that I endorse underage individuals keeping venomous but I will not simply ignore their inquiries about the hobby and let them learn on their own. Rather I will give advice on how to make them more well equipped to take on this endeavor, (when they are old enough to legally own one), via reccomending books to read and other venomous keepers to converse with. In a day when 80% of society thinks that the only good snake is a dead snake it is ironic how so many are quick to judge the intentions of the the younger ones' interest in venomous reptiles! If we want to continue the survival of venomous reptiles species in their natural habitats and the right to keep them, we should teach rather than judge. Because then we have just done the opposite of our mission statement. Which this site was built upon. For all who posted on this thread I encourage you all to look at the mission statement located on the left of the screen in the about the SHHS. Then ask yourselves honestly are you promoting the mission statement or deviating from it!
Just my .02,
Todd Poole
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RE: This Months Survey “Interesting Answers”
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by Rob_Carmichael on April 18, 2007
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Joe,
My statement, in hindsight, was a bit hypocritical. On one hand, if I lived in a state where it was legal to own venomous (It's illegal in Illinois so I keep the venomous collection at my wildlife center which falls under the umbrella of a city government and is on public exhibit), I don't know if I would want my neighbors knowing that I keep venomous. In my mind, I know that they would be properly kept and done so in a manner where no one is exposed to danger. On the other hand, if I had some yahoo living next to me who had a pet cobra and liked to show it off to his buddies and kept it in a manner that was less than acceptable, I would want to know. It's a tough call.
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
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RE: This Months Survey “Interesting Answers”
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by FLVenom911 on April 18, 2007
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Thanks for clearing that up Rob. I do agree with your assessment. It's a shame that there are some people who act that way, especially just for the shock value. I remember someone sending me a link to a myspace page where a person asked a dealer "Hey, I just bought a pair of cobras at Hamburg, could you identify them for me"! That's a disaster waiting to happen.
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