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Interesting question about venoms.
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by BigBend66 on May 7, 2008
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Dr, Bryan Greg Fry and many others who know far more than me concerning venoms say the Tiger rattler drop for drop has the most toxic venom of the North American rattlers. Here is my problem with that, if you are even scratched with one fang from the Mojave from the Yuma area of Arizona the effects are major deadly and come about quickly. Now, the Tiger can give you full bite and even though it is serious, it's no where near the emergency of the one fang Mojave. One scratch from one fang can't possibly be anywhere near the amount of a Tiger which would make it far more venomous. I know that was dragged out but couldn't think of an easier way to explain myself....
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RE: Interesting question about venoms.
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by tj on May 7, 2008
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Tests are done with mice, effects in humans will be different.
It's why I pay no attention to LD50 charts
Lachesis are at the bottom of lists in mice. Get bit and you are projectile vomiting and in and out of consciousness within 10 minutes. O micro's are at the top, yet no human fatalities. Granted, they have an excellent AV for them, and bites are usually to zookeepers. But with such a high toxicity, you'd think it would kill a human quickly. But, they don't.
Venom toxicities shouldn't be based off of LD50 charts, they should be based off of case studies. Just my humble.
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RE: Interesting question about venoms.
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by Chance on May 7, 2008
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TJ is correct - humans are not mice. Unfortunately, it would be considered 'cruel and unusual' to test human LD50s on death row inmates. It would be more accurate. As it is, mouse physiology is close enough to human physiology, on a molecular level, to at least be comparable. It's the closest we can get - especially with primate species on the decline as they are.
BigBend - I won't rehash the difference between toxicity and dangerousness. Reread my post in the Muffdaddy thread if you're still confused. Many, many factors go into how dangerous an animal is considered -propensity to bite, propensity to envenomate, likelihood to inject a lethal dose, habitat proximity to human populations, frequency humans encounter them, seasonal activity period, prey preference, etc etc etc.
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RE: Interesting question about venoms.
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by LarryDFishel on May 7, 2008
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I would also be curious what you base your statement about a "scratch" from a mojave on. Often, when people use that term they don't mean it litterally and they actually mean a minimal envenomation. The venom yield of a mojave is so much greater than a tiger that what might be termed a "scratch" from a mojave might indeed be more venom than a bite from a tiger.
Also, as stated the toxicity people are talking about is mouse LD50. What wasn't mentioned here is that the LD50 is measure of how likely the venom is to kill a mouse in 24 hours. So, a venom that kills half of them in 5 minutes and no more after that will be rated the same as one that kills half of them in the 24th hour and none before that.
Just another thought.
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RE: Interesting question about venoms.
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by Atrox788 on May 7, 2008
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As was said, LD50 does not tell us how potent a venom is to humans. It only gives us an idea which as was mentioned can be flawed. There is also the aspect of venom yields. Tiger rattlers have very tiny yields compared to other Crotalus. They also have more of a neurotoxic factor then most US Crotalus if I remember correctly (most not all obviously). V
Regarding Inland Taipans, I wouldn't underestimate their potential even alittle. Obviously nobody said they weren't lethal but your down playing their venom more then you should. I have heard of one bite account from the species (not to say that is all there is, just the only one I have heard an account from). With that bite the man in question is still not right and sufferers sever pain throughout his body and other severe neurological effects 8 years after having received the bite. Coastal Taipans are considered near 100 percent fatal without AV treatment and inlands share a very similar venom make up. I think it is well justified to assume that they potentially have one of if not the most lethal bites to humans on the planet and the LD50 helps to back this up. The reason there are not more fatalities is due to very few people living in their natural range, very few people keeping them in captivity and their rather docile nature compared to their Coastal cousins and other large elapids.
The best idea to judge a snakes venom potential to humans is to read bite accounts. There are several publications that have detailed species information in this regards. Also, Emed and a few other medical internet sites have good descriptive info regarding bite accounts.
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RE: Interesting question about venoms.
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by BigBend66 on May 7, 2008
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One person in particular is a venom researcher out of portal Arizona and was placing the Mojave back after a milking and was scratched with one fang to the exstint that he didn't even no if it broke the skin. His heart stopped several times before they got him to the hospital by air. I have heard many of these same type stories making me realize that the Mojave venom in many cases are more toxic to humans than most anything I have read about.
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RE: Interesting question about venoms.
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by Atrox788 on May 8, 2008
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Hi Bigbend,
There are too many factors to even credit that to the venom itself. That sounds more along the lines of an allergic reaction. venom researchers come into contact with venoms on a daily basis. This can and does lead to a person become hypersensitive to the toxins and I would be willing to bet this is the case.
Im not trying to down play the potential of Mojave venom at all. However, considering the extreme symptoms mentioned I find it hard to believe that another factor wasn't present.
Just my opinion.
Jeremy
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RE: Interesting question about venoms.
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by puffadder7 on May 8, 2008
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im with bigbend66, i know how toxic mojaves are they are way more toxic than tiger rattlesnakes and way more toxic than coral snakes wich most people say that has the most toxic venom in the us coral snakes are way behind mojaves in ld50 they have done studies where the same amount of mojave venom had more nureological effects than tigers anyway so thats it, arin
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RE: Interesting question about venoms.
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by Cro on May 8, 2008
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I think Jeremy is right about the man having an allergic / anaphylactic reaction.
That is well know in folks who work with venoms.
The same thing happens to bee keepers who have been stung hundreds of times, then suddenly develope life threatening reactions after just one more sting.
This is not to under estimate the extreme danger of a Mojave Rattlesnake Bite, that is very real. However, the reaction the man had would tend to suggest an severe allergic reaction, in addition to the normal damage the venom would be doing.
Best Regards JohnZ
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