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How many of you keep your own stock of antivenin?
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by Adamanteus70 on July 12, 2008
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How many of you keep your own private stock of antivenin?
I personally do not. Reason why: I cannot financially afford it.
Paul
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by earthguy on July 12, 2008
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Ditto. For most small, consciencious keepers, the probability of getting bitten is way smaller than the cost of keeping antivenom.
Plus, everyone knows that hospitals keep stock for native species, and the doc REALLY know what they're doing *dripping with sarcasm*
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by Macrovipera on July 12, 2008
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Financially not affording it is somewhat of an issue, especially when most private keepers will spend quite a few $K on any single snake. Many keepers think to get your BB IND number is hard and impossible when it's really not. It's more or less a lack of care or I can rely on antivenom to come elsewhere.
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by atwageman on July 12, 2008
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I don't keep AV for anything native, but have considered it on more than one occasion.
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by 23bms on July 12, 2008
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I don't. Too many species and too much cost for a highly perishable product.
I am not stupid. I acknowledge that this is a very CALCULATED risk. I have kept hots for many years, and I am very careful. I have never been bitten. I never intend to be. I go to extraordinary lengths to avoid it.
On the other hand, given the modern environment, I would not recommend this philosophy to a novice. Too many people out there are making too many errors. Not to mention other considerations. (Before everyone jumps on me, for any variety of reasons including misinterpretation of previous comments, carefully consider the last sentence.)
Regardless, it may well be irrelevant. I suspect that in a very few years, virtually all hot keepers, except for a few zoos being tormented by ELF and PETA types, will be ... shall we say ... underground?
jrb
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by Adamanteus70 on July 12, 2008
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I respect all of your replies, and fully understand your views and opinions.
Thanks,
Paul
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by Rob_Carmichael on July 13, 2008
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I like jrb's viewpoint on the matter....well said! As a private hobbyist and a curator of a facility that features many venomous species, I have conflicting feelings on the matter. Most private individuals simply cannot afford A/V....that's reality and I understand that. So whose responsibility is it when one of them gets popped (especially when I see so much careless keeping of venomous in today's youth....sorry youngsters, this is just coming from personal experience but I know plenty of adults who are just as inept)? I can answer that....facilities like mine! I nearly had all of my CroFab gutted a year ago - try replacing that quickly knowing the cost. It took nearly a year to get that replenished. We are talking about thousands of dollars of A/V just to keep a few species of hots but my feeling is that its that person's responsibility to pay the price so to speak.
Someone earlier said that hospitals carry A/V...boy, nothing could be further from the truth.
For those who do not possess their own A/V my advice is to work out a detailed protocol with your nearest hospital and your EMT's/Fire Dept. If they don't carry A/V, and they very well may not, you better have a plan in place of how to get it. Have a system that is easy to follow (such as name plates on your cages that when taken off, the A/V info, common name/species name, type of antivenin, names/numbers of facilities who have agreed to help you in the event of an emergency, and other pertinent info is on the back....Tim Cole has a nice system). Also, you should be prepared to pay the price if you get popped.
My facility will no longer loan out A/V for private individual's bites (easier said than done though)....we do have arrangements with a few private individuals who help us out a lot. Additionally, we are on some venom lists that will ensure quick replenishment should we have to give some up. Kentucky Reptile Zoo has been great in helping us out too. Not giving out A/V was a very difficult decision but the health and well being of me and my staff are more important than someone keeping hots and taking the chance w/out A/V. As jrb said, that's a calculated risk that one takes.
Rob Carmichael
Wildlife Discovery Center
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by Adamanteus70 on July 13, 2008
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Rob,
Your quote "the health and well being of me and my staff are more important than someone keeping hots and taking the chance w/out A/V"
No, you are not more important than anyone else, only in your own eyes. You have a "Elite" attitude about yourself. Labeling others whom you know nothing about. Not all venomous keepers are irresponsible idiots who are beneath you.
I am not "taking a chance". The hospital I have listed in my protocol stocks antivenin and CroFab.
Rob have you ever been envenomated?
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by stopgetinpopped on July 13, 2008
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If Rob taking and PAYING for the risks involved in responsibly keeping venomous at his institution makes him Elite...then I would agree he would be an Elite.
If one has to rely on Others to Pay to keep the antivenoms in stock FOR them makes them an idiot that yes I'll agree with that too.
A true 'calculated risk' would be hoping and working that
1-you are never envenomated
2- that you will survive without using someone elses antivenom.
Especially when Rob and all other facilities who stock their own A/V has a Responsibility to the people who work there to make sure they are covered. When someone else uses that antivenom up then the staff at the facility are putting their lives in a 'calculated Risk' that they did not choose to take.
Keeping native Venomous isn't usually the problem. It is exotic A/V that cause most of the trouble.
The interesting thing is that the majority of exotic antivenoms are not really that expensive.
Take African Venomous snakes for example. A person could keep a multitude of those animals that are covered by SAIMR (SAVP)for less than 1000 dollars worth of antivenom. (which is 27 dollars a month for an AV with a shelf life of 3 years)
If that is too expensive than people shouldn't work with those animals.
That is a "calculated risk vs. benefit" That does not affect other peoples safety who choose to work at a facility that stocks it's own A/V's
I love this topic lol..it doesn't take long before people take the definition of responsible and apply it to the definition of Elite. Normally, with an insulting tone.
Cheers!
Terry
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by RyanM on July 13, 2008
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I think this is one area I agree with Mr. Carmicheal on, It is simply not right for someone who has gone through all the trouble/cost to aquire antivenom, to have to surrender it without a guarantee of being compensated for it.
There should be at a minimum some way for the person or institution to bill the hospital for the antivenom, or send a bill to the patient directly. There are already numerous legal channels (liens,court Etc..)to collect unpaid bills,which is what this amounts to.
If you put yourself in contact with a venomous animal whether in captivity or not, you know(or should know)there is a chance you could die. Personal responsibility for your own actions,serious decision can have serious consequences.
Mr. Carmichaels views on this issue don't make him an elitist....its his views on other issues..LOL
(Sorry I couldn't resist)
Ryan Mccullah
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