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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by Adamanteus70 on July 13, 2008
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Terry,
I am not trying to insult anyone, just pointing out that there are two sides of the venomous community here. The folks who are fortunate enough to aquire a position at a facility seem to be always looking down at the private breeder. In some cases, the private breeder is the one who produces animals for the facility to use, but constantly get thrown under the bus as being "substandard".
I only keep native venomous here in Florida. I have a source for antivenin if I need it. I have a budget to work with just like a zoo, but mine is a whole lot smaller I am sure. Therefore I spend the money on maintaining my collection and keeping them in good health.
Secure cages are expensive, rodents are now costly, and not to mention licenses and permits, so being cheap and relying on others is simply not the case.
Terry do you keep your own personal stock of antivenin?
Paul
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by jared on July 13, 2008
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Paul, I fully agree with you. I do not, and I have refused antivenin because it was not necessary for a bite. Most private keepers who have to buy out of pocket AV cannot afford it. Most facilities including AZA who get numerous exemptions and tax breaks (obvious educational purposes) have more side money to play with. That fact is that the 'elitism' between some individuals is painfully obvious. When i was 16 a very prominant Phd told me that anyone without a phd should not keep venomous snakes, wow. I said VERY early on when this website started that if we could not back each other like the equine industry does, this community would fall. It does not help the situation for anyone when people turn on each other in the community. And furthermore, having worked with 'professional' keepers from facilities, again, my pay wage is a little higher than they are willing to accept, thus you get those who arent the best qualified, just willing to take the paycut. My .02,
Jared
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by Rob_Carmichael on July 13, 2008
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Paul,
Your statements are 100% false - I'm an elitist? Are you kidding? My facility is NOT AZA, we do NOT get tax support to operate, we do NOT charge a fee to come and visit our facility, we DO PAY a lot of money for A/V to protect me and my staff. How in the hell does that make me an elitist? And, no, I am not above anyone....far from it.
My point is that those who keep hots w/out antivenin are taking a very calculated risk and one that shouldn't come at the expense of those people or facilities who do stock their own. If that makes me an elitist then I guess I'm one.
AND I'M HAPPY TO SAY THAT I HAVEN'T BEEN TAGGED YET. Yes, it may happen; that's reality but when and if that does happen, I sure as heck want to make sure I'm protected. I minimize chances and take every precaution to ensure safe interactions.
Hope that clarifies my points a bit.
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by Cro on July 13, 2008
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The best solution to this problem would be to set up National Antivenom Banks, affiliated with Poison Control Centers, in major towns in the US.
The Antivenom could be housed at firestations, which could be provided with refrigeration and training.
Kind of like cloning Miami's Venom One around other parts of the country.
The Antivenom stocks at Zoos could serve as a backup, if really needed, but not as a first line of treatment.
These same Antivenom Banks should also allow individuals who wish to purchase / keep their own Antivenom to purchase directly through them. This would help bring the price into an affordable range due to the buying power.
The Government wastes huge ammounts of money each year on worthless projects, this project would be very worthwile, and would not cost all that much to implement. The firestations are allready there. The Poison Control Centers are allready there. Someone just needs to bring the rest together.
Something could be set up like an insurance policy, that would allow venomous keepers to purchase the insurance in advance, which would help with the cost if they ever needed Antivenom. If someone without the insurance was bitten, they would still recieve the Antivenom, however, the cost would be part of their hospital bill.
All we need is some Congressman to introduce a Bill that would set this program up. Any Elapid keepers in the House or Senate ????
Best Regards John Z
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by stopgetinpopped on July 13, 2008
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Paul,
No, I don't keep my own personal stock of antivenom. I don't keep Venomous snakes at home.
Though if I did my level of integrity wouldn't allow me to keep Venomous snakes at home without appropriate antivenom.
Thats just how I am.
Cheers!
Terry
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by atwageman on July 13, 2008
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I do agree it would suck to have to give up your supply of A/V to some fleeb. I know it's a moral issue on weather to give up your supply to save someones life. For me if a hospital calls me up wanting mine, it's very simple for me, the hospital will be cutting me a check very fast.
I don't stock A/V for the native speices I keep, becuase 2 of my local hospitals keep A/V on hand. Now I do have some for a couple of african species I do keep. I also have a rider on my health insurance policy that will cover dollar for dollar the first 10 vials of A/V per bite. Insurance companies will right those kinds of policy riders if you talk to the right people.
I also have a relationship with my local hospiatals. Luckily the relationship is non bite related in terms of myself. Couple of years ago we had small rash of copperhead bites in the area. Not keepers, but bites from people who were just out mowing the lawn, etc. The supply for about 2 weeks got low, as professional courtesy they notified me just to give me a heads up.
Most keepers don't bother to establish relationships like that for a whole host of reasons I can list.
1. They don't know how to communicate with the healthcare and scientific community.
2. They try to establish a relationship, but show up for a meeting wearing all black and have 50 piercings on their pimple face. (first impressions are everything).
3. Refer back to #1. If you can't hold a conversation at their level, well then you may not be taken seriously. If you can't hold a conversation at their level then maybe you haven't studied venomous reptiles long enough.
I could rant all day and night about this, but I have secure, lockable cages that I need to go clean.
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by GREGLONGHURST on July 13, 2008
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It is my opinion that a keeper of venomous reptiles should have his or her own supply of antivenin. It is also my opinion that a place like Rob's that is called upon to surrender all or part of their supply should be compensated either in funds or in antivenin. Without the assurance (legal) of the compensation, I see no need for giving up the antivenin. Yeah. Harsh.
~~Greg~~
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by BobH on July 13, 2008
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There is another side of this. If you keep venomous snakes, especially exotics, you should realize that if you get bitten you might die. Having antivenom certainly would reduce the risk some, but that assumes the people who take care of you in the hospital know what they are doing?
There is also another side to using someones stock antivenom...it all has expiration dates that range from 1 to 3 yrs. That means everything they have in stock will be expired within the next three years. Is it no good after it expires?...the answer is NO. But it will be difficult to get a hospital to administer outdated antivenom. So SHOULD all the antivenom in be discarded at expiration? I would just as soon use it to try to save someone life...even if they were folish.
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by Buzztail1 on July 13, 2008
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This thread has been run out at least twice before and almost always with the same results.
I do not keep my own antivenom.
I can only keep indigenous (Georgia) venomous.
My local hospital and several of the nearby hospitals in Jacksonville, Florida carry CroFab.
I have been in contact with my local Emergency Room.
I did provide them with a recognition guide for the local venomous snakes.
This topic was also covered in depth at an SHHS banquet with guest speaker Scott Pfaff of the Riverbanks Zoo. Many people had their eyes opened that night on why so many zoos take a stance against the public keeping venomous reptiles. Zoos carry enough antivenom (which is expensive coming out of their budget too!) to cover the people that work with their venomous snakes. When they provide antivenom for a private sector bite, they are almost never re-imbursed. They also have a gap in their coverage while they try to get more antivenom through their budget system and then through all of the permitting hoops.
How many times do you think you would give up your own insurance policy for someone who was not properly prepared and was not interested in repaying your generosity before you started saying why are we letting these people keep these things?
I have heard the argument that it is their job. No! It is not their job to provide a security blanket for stupid people who do stupid things like free handle their cobra or have a few beers and pull out their Western Diamondback to show their friends. But, routinely, that is who the zoo's antivenoms go to save. Several zoos have quit keeping venomous snakes. With exceptional safety records and keepers not being bitten, they cannot justify the expense of replenishing antivenom that is only going out to be used by irresponsible individuals in the private sector.
Just my own personal views on this highly volatile matter.
R/
Karl
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by Cro on July 13, 2008
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Karl makes a very good point.
Zoos keep Antivenom first and formost for the protection of the folks who work at those Zoos everyday with the venomous snakes that are kept there.
The Antivenom serves as a secondary purpose to help folks at other Zoos who might need some of that Antivenom for a severe bite to one of their reptile keepers.
While Zoos have been called upon to help individuals with snakebites from exotic snakes, there is NO obligation for Zoos to use their Antivenom that way.
Many Zoos will help save folks lives, and put their own keepers at risk by suppling Antivenom, however it usually hurts the zoo, as it takes months to replenish the depleted Antivenom, and they are often not paid by hospitals for Antivenom they send out.
The idea that Zoos have a lot of money to purchase Antivenom is false. Most Zoos have a very tight budget, and can not afford to easily replace Antivenoms. The money that Zoos take in at the gate does not go to the Zoo, it goes into some city budget.
Zoo Reptile Keepers are still some of the most underpaid city workers. In many areas of the country, a reptile keeper at a city zoo makes much less than a city garbidge collector.
If a Zoo choses to send out Antivenom to save the life of some nitwhit bitten by a pet cobra, it is because the folks at the Zoo are caring individuals. It is not because the Zoo has any obligation at all to do that.
Best Regards John Z
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