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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by Phobos on July 14, 2008
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I really don't have the time to read all this topic so I will blindly plunge in.
I came to the conclusion that many snakes I have and that are sold at shows or on the net are too dangerous to keep unless you have serum with you when you arrive at the ER. I shudder to think about the Taipans I see sold at Hamburg going to places & people who will not survive the bite if they don't keep the serum along with the snake. Ask Dave Williams how close he came to the edge when tagged while catching a snake 16km (~10 miles)from the hospital where he treats victims of the same snake, where they know how to treat Taipan bites. What chance do you really think you have if bitten? The Naja kaouthia bite a week or two ago in Texas was nearly fatal. In only 40 mins post bite he needed to be intubated and plugged into a respirator till A/V arrived. That was just your basic cobra bite with post-synaptic neurotoxins, what if that was something with presynaptic neurotoxins which are not reversable with even A/V? You'd be dead or on a respirator for a long time, if not for the rest of your life.
I Matt Harris and I tried to start a regional A/V bank a few years ago but ran into a major roadblock, the FDA who issues the BB-IND#'s. Dr. Steve Seifert, NMPCC received a grant from the NIH to set-up regional banks in the form of "nationally" augmented stocks to be kept at Zoo's with their normal stock for what they have. I don't know exactly where in the implimentation this is but will know more the first week in August when I see Dr. Seifert. Zoo's are naturally not thrilled about this program but what's new.
Best,
Al
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by JoeCrotalid on July 14, 2008
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Jeff:
The actual number of reported venomous exotic bites nationally in 2006 was 69 with 54 requiring hospitalization and no fatalities according to TESS. In 2005, 98 bites were recorded with 87 needing admission and no fatalities. Unfortunately the report does not seperate AV other than Fab Fragment AV. Exotic AV is included in with scorpion and widow AV. I would have to do a specific request through the AAPCC for cases requiring AV and where it was obtained.
But compare these numbers with native envenomations and exotic bites count for a small percentage of recorded bites probably 1-2% just like coral snake bites. The number I quoted earlier for 2007 was for Florida only.
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by tigers9 on July 14, 2008
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Snakebites reported to TESS 2003 through 2005
Venomous exotic snake
2003-126
2004-131
2005-98
to see all captive snake fatalities by species since 1995 go here
http://www.rexano.org//Statistics/venomous_captive_snake_fatality.pdf
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by tigers9 on July 14, 2008
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Just my personal unbiased opinion, since I do not own any venomous snakes. I live in Mohave and Speckled territory, so I am hoping my hospital will have AV in case of an accident since these snakes are native here.
In case of exotic non native snake AV, I believe that since most AZA zoos are to a big degree or fully publicly funded and they have it easier to get AV from overseas, that they do owe something back to the public.
On the different subject/parallel, we often pay for things we don’t use, me for example, I have no kids, don’t use public transportation, etc…but my taxes still pay for schools and public transport,…, I have no choice.
OK, back to AV, if one private owner has it and another down the street with the same exotic snake doesn’t have it,(for whatever reason) should the one that has it offer it in case of an emergency?
Forget snakes and insert different medical procedure, if you have more money than your neighbor and he needs life saving heart transplant, should you be expected to pay for his surgery because you can afford it and he can’t ? is the fact that he might not have medical insurance make a difference, especially if he spent his money on new sports car so money was not left on insurance/ Just playing a devil's advocate here;-)
Just something to think about.
Z
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by biff on July 15, 2008
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thx Rob and Jared, I appreciate the insight.
Steve
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by stopgetinpopped on July 15, 2008
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It's really not so much the expense ( which is a part of it) But the real problem is that I normally stock 20 vials of South African Antivenoms for example. That 'should' be enough to cover ME for two average bites by some species covered or 1 serious bite. I have a complete yo yo in the area that I just found out is keeping some venomous snakes. He is absolutely clueless as to how to work with them. Now, in order to protect ME I have to put in an order for another 10-20 vials just in case dingdong down the street gets popped. It's not so much the money but the simple fact that I don't want to work with 200 individual snakes that are covered by that sera without any antivenom. If he were bitten I need to have coverage for me and my staff. Last time I order South African Antivenoms it literally took me 8 months to get it here.
I know this guy is down the road. What about the ones I don't know about? What if they are keeping an Asiatic Cobra? I only have enough for me? So should I start doubling all of my stocks of antivenoms here? Just because somebody MIGHT be keeping something in the area?
I stock 24 different types of antivenoms here. Second only to Miami Dade in quantity.
So answer me this...How as a facility am I supposed to make sure My staff is covered? Especially when private people won't tell us what they are keeping? Let alone the simple fact that they are keeping?
Someone eluded to developing a relationship with your local zoo and ER. That would be the smartest thing they could do. I would rather know I have to stock more sera just so that I can cover my butt. However, if someone presented themselves with a Taipan Bite in my area, I may choose not to give them our sera. I only have enough of that to cover one bite and I have way to many Taipans to not keep antivenom here. As I'm sorry....my life and my staffs life is FAR more important to me than some joker with a Taipan in his bedroom.
I just can't fathom why anyone would think it was ok to rely on someone elses antivenom. Zoo or not. Even if you think Zoo's should 'give back' to the community. They can't give back if it puts them at risk. That has to be the most arrogant asshole thought I've ever heard. There are likely thousands of those arrogant jerks keeping in this country, with maybe dozens of descent private keepers... and you think we are Elitests? Jealous? ... Amazing!
So it boils down to not so much the money...but the length of time with out antivenom for the people who were ethical and responsible enough to get it in the first place.
cheers!
Terry
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by stopgetinpopped on July 15, 2008
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And all this because "you can't afford it"
So because you would choose to have 10 snakes in quality cageswith no antivenom because "you can't afford it"
instead of 5 snakes in quality cages AND antivenom
You are willing to kill me or my staff?
That is Quite easily the definition of an 'Asshat'
T-
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by MattHarris on July 19, 2008
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Terry makes many great points. Exotic A/Vs are the real concern and considering their price (for the required number of vials necessary to neutralize a typical bite), the cost is typically far less than most people spend on snakes, it's really not an issue of money, but mere laziness to obtain the BB-IND and maintain their own supply.
MH
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by trediggy on July 22, 2008
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i read a story of a guy who got bit by his pet cobra. he had his own antiven but the hospital would not use it because it was not theirs. they did not know what sourse he obtained it from. but luckily he survived
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RE: How many of you keep your own stock of antiven
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by tj on July 22, 2008
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You're probably thinking of the guy in Canada that got tagged. That was a completely different story. The "AV" in question was apparently some crap that his friend made. I think it was a good call on the hospitals part by not administering something unknown that could have potentially killed him.
Here's one of the clippings:
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=f6e438d5-c653-4cdb-b64f-bf9b585db6c9
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