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RE: Obama admits he supports exotic animal bans
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by 23bms on November 7, 2008
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Obama is a classic politician. He will say anything to get elected. Obama changed EVERY SINGLE POLICY POSITION to the center after he had gained the nomination and had to begin to pander to real people as opposed to the nut cases who determine the Democratic nominee. If you look at the HISTORICAL Obama, the original loony left positions are what he ACTUALLY BELIEVES.
That aside, I offer a few highly cynical observations, by far more astute observers than me, on the process called democracy:
Democracy consists of choosing your dictators, after they've told you what you think it is you want to hear.
Alan Corenk
The great thing about democracy is that it gives every voter a chance to do something stupid.
Art Spander
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950), Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
The whole dream of democracy is to raise the proletarian to the level of stupidity attained by the bourgeois.
Gustave Flaubert (1821 - 1880)
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.
H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right.
H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does.
Will Rogers (1879 - 1935)
Obama 2008? Welcome to the fools paradise.
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RE: Obama admits he supports exotic animal bans
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by tigers9 on November 7, 2008
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23bms, u crack me up
<,Obama 2008? Welcome to the fools paradise>.
I love the quotes, another looong day dealing with crap/idiocy, so I will answer Chance and toodd tomorrow in deatail, excercising my freedom of speech before it might be taken away, see what gun sales are doing thanks to Obamanomics ,if freedom of speech is next, I will overcomepensate now/tomorrow;-)
Z
(the one who loves vodka but refuses to drink Kool Aid)
==
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gHIVt7MERGIbR6SEMaTMPoeCiuiwD94AB9280
Fears of a Dem crackdown lead to boom in gun sales
By DENA POTTER – 5 hours ago
MIDLOTHIAN, Va. (AP) — When 10-year-old Austin Smith heard Barack Obama had been elected president, he had one question: Does this mean I won't get a new gun for Christmas?
That brought his mother, the camouflage-clad Rachel Smith, to Bob Moates Sports Shop on Thursday, where she was picking out that special 20-gauge shotgun — one of at least five weapons she plans to buy before Obama takes office in January.
Like Smith, gun enthusiasts nationwide are stocking up on firearms out of fears that the combination of an Obama administration and a Democrat-dominated Congress will result in tough new gun laws.
"I think they're going to really try to crack down on guns and make it harder for people to try to purchase them," said Smith, 32, who taught all five of her children — ages 4 to 10 — to shoot because the family relies on game for food.
Last month, as an Obama win looked increasingly inevitable, there were more than 108,000 more background checks for gun purchases than in October 2007, a 15 percent increase. And they were up about 8 percent for the year as of Oct. 26, according to the FBI.
No data was available for gun purchases this week, but gun shops from suburban Virginia to the Rockies report record sales since Tuesday's election.
"They're scared to death of losing their rights," said David Hancock, manager of Bob Moates, where sales have nearly doubled in the past week and are up 15 percent for the year. On Election Day, salespeople were called in on their day off because of the crowd.
Obama has said he respects Americans' Second Amendment right to bear arms, but that he favors "common sense" gun laws. Gun rights advocates interpret that as meaning he'll at least enact curbs on ownership of assault and concealed weapons.
As a U.S. Senator, Obama voted to leave gun-makers and dealers open to lawsuits; and as an Illinois state legislator, he supported a ban on semiautomatic weapons and tighter restrictions on all firearms.
During an October appearance in Ohio, Obama sought to reassure gun owners. "I will not take your shotgun away," he said. "I will not take your rifle away. I won't take your handgun away."
Gun advocates take some solace in the current makeup of the U.S. Supreme Court, which ruled 5-4 this summer to strike down the District of Columbia's 32-year ban on handguns. For now, gun rights supporters hold a narrow edge on the court, but Obama could appoint justices who would swing it the other way.
Franklin Gun Shop outside Nashville, Tenn., sold more than 70 guns on Tuesday, making it the biggest sales day since the shop opened eight years ago. Guns & Gear in Cheyenne, Wyo., also set a one-day sales record on Tuesday, only to break that mark on Wednesday.
Stewart Wallin, owner of Get Some Guns in the Salt Lake City suburb of Murray, Utah, said he sold nine assault weapons the day after Obama was elected. That same day, the gun store Cheaper Than Dirt! in Fort Worth, Texas, sold $101,000 worth of merchandise, shattering its single-day sales record, store owner DeWayne Irwin said.
One Georgia gun shop advertised an "Obama sale" on an outdoor sign, but the owner took it down after people complained that the shop appeared to be issuing a call to violence against the country's first black leader.
The president of a Montana gun manufacturer stepped down last month after word that he supported Obama led to calls for a boycott of the company.
While Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the National Rifle Association, attributes some of the sales boom to the tanking economy, he thinks the Democratic sweep is the top reason why guns are suddenly a hot commodity.
"I don't think he'll be able to stand up to that anti-Second Amendment wing of the Democratic party that's just been spoiling for chance to ban America's guns," LaPierre said of Obama.
During the campaign, the NRA warned that Obama would be the "most antigun president in American history." And while Vice President-elect Joe Biden owns shotguns, he has supported a ban on assault weapons and has said private sellers at gun shows should be required to perform background checks.
But Mark Tushnet, a Harvard Law School professor who has written a book about the gun debate, said new firearms regulations will be a low priority for an Obama administration and Democratic Congress facing a global economic crisis and two wars.
"Maybe the gun-show loophole will be closed, but not much else," he said in an e-mail. "I'd be surprised, for example, if Congress enacted a new assault gun ban."
Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said his organization will continue to press for what he calls "sensible" restrictions — background checks at gun shows, a ban on military-style assault weapons and cracking down on illegal gun trade. He believes he has the backing of the new administration on those issues, but any fears of a broader crackdown are unfounded.
"The one thing that they agree strongly with us on is that it's too easy for dangerous people to get guns in this country," Helmke said. "I guess if you're a dangerous person you might want to run out there and buy some more, but otherwise you should be OK."
Associated Press writers Lara Jakes Jordan in Washington, Angela K. Brown in Fort Worth, Texas, Kate Brumback in Marietta, Ga., Joe Edwards in Nashville, Tenn., Don Mitchell in Denver, Matt Joyce in Cheyenne, Wyo., and Paul Foy in Salt Lake City contributed to this report.
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RE: Obama admits he supports exotic animal bans
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by 23bms on November 7, 2008
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I have already come across the articles on the frantic gun sales. Don't worry. He has to get a couple of Supreme Court justices first. That will take a couple of years. Then they have to get a case that justifies reversing the precedent. All this will take time. In the interim, buy now and stock up on ammunition, you may not be able to later.
jrb
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RE: Obama admits he supports exotic animal bans
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by tigers9 on November 7, 2008
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I legally have/own everything from .22 pistol to .45 machine gun, but i wil get more ammo soon ;-)
I wonder if I could/should get more exotic animals too before they get banned too, I only own one constrictor snake now, maybe I should get more before the constrictors hysteria becoems a law?
Z
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RE: Obama admits he supports exotic animal bans
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by 23bms on November 7, 2008
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Actually, they don't have to get a case that JUSTIFIES reversing the precedent. They only have to get a case that gives them an excuse to rule again. Constitutionality, in the PC world, holds no merit whatsoever. After all, the Constitution was written by despicable dead white men.
Hugo Chavez says we should rewrite out constitution. Maybe President Obama should meet with him to discuss this - without preconditions, of course
Out country is about to get what sixty million - SIXTY MILLION - cretins voted for.
Nebulous 'Hope and Change!'
'We are the ones we have been waiting for!' (The perfect slogan for a degenerate self absorbed navel gazing society.)
Fools!!
jrb
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RE: Obama admits he supports exotic animal bans
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by tigers9 on November 8, 2008
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Chance, I am now replying to your post regarding your claim that many people shouldn’t keep dangerous animals and you want tough regulation on who gets to keep them. Would that include bulls, horses and dogs you would want to over regulate?
Furthermore, you are attempting to protect people from themselves, since the injuries/fatalities pretty much happen to owners/trainers. How far do you want to take it, parachuting, motorcycles, etc…
As for your claim that OKlahoma auctions should be outlawed because you witnessed some chickens without shelter, why outlaw them, why not make sure next time you see it to report the guilty ones, see below, OK has cruelty statutes, no need to outlaw whole auctions/animal shows because few there are breaking existing abuse laws.
Why do liberals want to solve everything they don’t like with more laws? I can not get it.
Z
http://animalscience.ag.utk.edu/equine/law/cruelty/ok_cruel.htm
Oklahoma Cruelty to Animals Statutes
OKLAHOMA STATUTES
TITLE 21. CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
PART VII. CRIMES AGAINST PROPERTY
CHAPTER 67. INJURIES TO ANIMALS
1680. Short title
This act shall be known and may be cited as the "Animal Facilities Protection Act".
1680.1. Definitions
As used in this act:
1. "Animal" means any mammal, bird, fish, reptile or invertebrate, including wild and domesticated species, other than a human being;
2. "Animal facility" means any vehicle, building, structure, farm, ranch or other premises where an animal is kept, handled, transported, housed, exhibited, bred, offered for sale or used in any lawful scientific test, experiment, investigation or educational training;
3. "Person" means any individual, state agency, corporation, association, nonprofit corporation, joint stock company, firm, trust, partnership, two or more persons having a common interest, or other legal entity;
4. "Owner" means a person who has title to the property, possession of the property, or a greater right to the possession of the animal or property than another person;
5. "Possession" means actual care, custody, control or management; and
6. "Effective consent" means consent by the owner or a person legally authorized to act for the owner. Consent is not effective if induced or given by force or fear; by a person the offender knows is not legally authorized to act for the owner; or by a person who by reason of youth, mental disease or defect, or influence of drug or alcohol is known by the offender to be unable to make reasonable decisions.
1680.2. Prohibited acts with regard to certain animal facilities-- Penalties--Exempted acts
A. No person shall, without the effective consent of the owner and with intent to damage the enterprise conducted at the animal facility:
1. Damage, destroy or remove an animal facility or any property or animal in or on an animal facility;
2. Acquire or otherwise exercise control over an animal facility, an animal or other property from an animal facility, with the intent to deprive the owner of such facility, animal or property;
3. Enter an animal facility, not open to the public, with intent to commit an act prohibited by this section;
4. Enter an animal facility and commit or attempt to commit an act prohibited by this section;
5. Remain concealed in an animal facility, with intent to commit or attempt to commit an act prohibited by this section;
6. Enter or remain on an animal facility when the person has notice that entry is forbidden by any of the following:
a. written or oral communication with the owner or a person with apparent authority to act for the owner,
b. fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or contain animals, or
c. a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, indicating that unauthorized entry is forbidden; and
7. Release any animal or animals, with intent to deprive the owner of such animal or animal facility.
B. A violation of any of the provisions in paragraphs 1 through 7 of subsection A of this section shall be a felony, upon conviction, punishable by a fine not to exceed Five Thousand Dollars ($5,000.00) or by imprisonment in the State Penitentiary for a term not to exceed seven (7) years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
C. The provisions of this section shall not apply to lawful activities of any governmental agency or employees or agents thereof carrying out their respective duties under the law.
1681. Poisoning cattle
Every person who willfully administers poison to any animal, the property of another, and every person who maliciously exposes any poisonous substance with intent that the same shall be taken by any such animal, shall be guilty of a felony and shall be punishable by imprisonment in the state penitentiary not exceeding three (3) years, or in a county jail not exceeding one (1) year, or by a fine not exceeding Two Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00), or by both such fine and imprisonment.
1685. Cruelty to animals
Any person who shall willfully or maliciously overdrive, overload, torture, destroy or kill, or cruelly beat or injure, maim or mutilate, any animal in subjugation or captivity, whether wild or tame, and whether belonging to himself or to another, or deprive any such animal of necessary food, drink or shelter; or who shall cause, procure or permit any such animal to be so overdriven, overloaded, tortured, destroyed or killed, or cruelly beaten or injured, maimed or mutilated, or deprived of necessary food, drink or shelter; or who shall willfully set on foot, instigate, engage in, or in any way further any act of cruelty to any animal, or any act tending to produce such cruelty, shall be guilty of a felony and shall be punished by imprisonment in the state penitentiary not exceeding five (5) years, or by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one (1) year, or by fine not exceeding Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00). Any officer finding an animal so maltreated or abused shall cause the same to be taken care of, and the charges therefor shall be a lien upon such animal, to be collected thereon as upon a pledge or a lien.
1686. Abandoned animals--Destroyed how
A. Any person owning or having charge or custody of a maimed, diseased, disabled, or infirm animal who abandons said animal or who allows said animal to lie in a public street, road, or public place one (1) hour after said person receives notice by a duly constituted authority that the animal is disabled or dead, upon conviction, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
B. Any peace officer, animal control officer, or agent or officer of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals or of any humane society duly incorporated for the purpose of the prevention of cruelty to animals may destroy or cause to be destroyed any animal found abandoned and for which no proper care has been given.
C. When any person who is arrested, and who is at the time of such arrest in charge of any animal or of any vehicle drawn by or containing any animal, any peace officer, animal control officer, or agent or officer of said humane societies may take custody of the animal or of the vehicle and its contents, or deliver the animal or the vehicle and its contents into the possession of the police or sheriff of the county or place where such arrest was made, who shall assume the custody thereof. All necessary expenses incurred in taking custody of the animal or of the vehicle and its contents shall be a lien on such property.
D. For the purpose of the provisions of this section and Section 1691 of this title, the term abandon means the voluntary relinquishment of an animal with no intention to retain possession and shall include but shall not be limited to vacating a premises and leaving the animal in or at the premises, or failing to feed the animal or allowing it to stray or wander onto private or public property with the intention of surrendering ownership or custody over said animal.
1688. Animals in transit
Any person who carries or causes to be carried in or upon any vessel or vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhuman manner, or so as to produce torture is guilty of a misdemeanor.
1689. Poisonous drugs, unjustifiable administration of
Any person who unjustifiably administers any poisonous or noxious drug or substance to any animal, or unjustifiably exposes any such drug or substance with intent that the same shall be taken by an animal, whether such animal be the property of himself or another, is guilty of a misdemeanor.
1691. Abandoning of domestic animals along streets or highways or in any public place prohibited
Any person who deposits any live dog, cat, or other domestic animal along any private or public roadway, or in any other private or public place with the intention of abandoning the domestic animal upon conviction, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
1692. Penalty
Any person found guilty of violating any of the provisions of Sections 1686, 1688, 1689 and 1691 of this title shall be punished by a fine in an amount not less than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one (1) year, or by both said fine and imprisonment.
Amended in 1997, 1999.
Reviewed by AAHS in September 2001.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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RE: Obama admits he supports exotic animal bans
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by tigers9 on November 8, 2008
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Chance claims:<<I believe I know where you're going with this and I'll see if I can cut you off at the pass, as it were. If you're trying to draw a parallel about keeping snakes in 'apparently' cramped enclosures vs. keeping primates or large cats in small enclosures, there is no comparison. Snakes are, by nature, secretive animals and rarely move about their environments in the open. In fact, many species may spend weeks or even months in the exact same spot. Other animals like primates and large cats, OTOH, have large home ranges which few private keepers could ever hope to emulate. >>
Ok,Chance, it was partly where I was going, but the issue is bigger than that.
The exotic bans/regs are written under the guise of public safety (aka cage strength requirements) and animal welfare (aka cage size).
When you look closely at the latest exotic incidents we had, it was not some innocent public that got bitten, it was not some newbie that got injured, and it was not any cage/equipment failure. In all cases it was owner/keeper breaking protocols, aka, human error. The legislation you propose to make it tougher for people to have them wouldn’t have prevented in these cases, these would be the people who would be called experts.
The latest cobra bite in FL, it was an extremely experienced keeper, not some newbie, how would your idea of regulation prevented that case??? What exactly are you proposing to make it tough for people to get these animals, who decides? Judging from your snake collection, you are not exactly Evil Knievel kind of guy. That is OK, be scared and live a safe life, but don’t force me to be scared with you. How many of the youngsters that wear boas on their neck had their boa attack or kill an innocent bystander? How many innocent bystanders were killed by dogs? I am not advertising wearing boas around necks around town, I am just using the example as one that is not being a public safety issues, you might have personal esthetical issues with people doing that, but where is the public danger? Document it please.
I don’t want the government to decide for me which animal is safe for me, and having dealt with many species in my life, I pick bull or stallion any day as one most likely to hurt a person.
Now the animal welfare part, aka cage size. You claim snakes barely move, well, it depends on the type of the snake. I would argue that for a snake as coachwhip, minimum room size terrarium would be a good start. U need to see coachwhip move to really appreciate it. As for home range, even the slower snakes have them bigger that 2x6 terrarium.
http://www.fs.fed.us/global/iitf/pubs/ja_iitf_2004_puenterolon001.pdf
Now let me educate you on big cats home range, the reason is not that they want to exercise and look good for tourists, the reason is they need big home ranges to find food. In captivity that is not an issue so big cats basically do what your snakes do in captivity, SLEEP, that is what cats are experts at. And bigger they are, the lazier they get, so your average domestic cat needs more space than a lazy male lion for all practical/enrichment purposes.
But let's assume that AR approaches legislators trying to ban reptiles, and brings pictures of all these snakes crammed in terrariums or sterile plastic cups, where they can not even stretch full length. Then AR will give this legislator the typical abuse spiel. Do u think after seeing the pics the legislators 1st thought will be that these snakes are like rocks and they don’t move, OR will he agree with AR and think this is cruel? How many legislators are educated on snake home ranges???
What about birds in small cages? How far do you want to take this animal welfare , for every species of animal? To be fair u should than do it even for goldfish? Should anybody buying 6x6 dog kennel for their dog, 2x1 cage for their bird and small glass bowl for their fish be arrested for animal abuse? I mean, if we require huge enclosures for wolves, why do we accept dogs to be in 6x6 kennels or tiny apartments, after all wolves and dogs are NOT separate species.
Should we ban dogs in apartments, or make it a law that if u have one in the apartment u need to exercise it outside and anything else is cruel??
Yeah, some folks let their bird/boa have a run around the house once in a while to stretch, but you wouldn’t want people to let their venomous snakes have a run of the house to stretch, would you?
U r so concerned about exotics, while totally ignoring the conditions of the domestic animals which are more numerous.
And no, I don’t think 10x10 cage is good enough for a tiger or bear, but I don’t think it is big enough for a dog either. As long as we are not mandating the size of dog yards, bird or hamster cage or fish tanks, we need to be consistent and not discriminate and mandate it for exotics. Fair is fair.
Z
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RE: Obama admits he supports exotic animal bans
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by Chance on November 8, 2008
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Of course you're right Z, that domestic animals are often kept in deplorable conditions as well. I'm sorry I singled out exotics in my post, but I think that some level of respect should be granted to all animals we decide to keep in captivity, exotic or not. That's the whole point of my spiel. I've seen too many exotic keepers with bears in small kennels, alligators in small livestock tanks, and numerous baboons crammed into too small of a cage to not believe something should be done about that.
I did do something about a place I visited in Branson. I called the MO Game and Fish and reported the conditions in which the animals were being kept. It wasn't the first time the place had been reported, according to the person to whom I spoke, so who knows if they did anything or not. I did what I could.
As for the auction in OK, there were wildlife officers present that didn't seem perturbed by anything they saw. It really had that small town "bubba" atmosphere, and I strongly suspect any report I made would've been blown off, hence the reason I didn't raise a stink about it. I do appreciate the source of OK animal welfare laws. If I ever do visit another auction (doubtful) I'll be sure to bring a copy with me and hope I don't get jumped by the sleazy animal owners.
Sorry I can't expound much more as I'm at work. Again, I'm not saying people should be banned from keeping these animals. I just believe there should be some kind of accountability for it. I'm not a leglislator so I can't presume to propose laws, but I do write my local legislators from time to time.
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END OF THREAD
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by Buzztail1 on November 8, 2008
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Even though some of the folks in this thread have been warned before, we could not manage to keep this thread related to any of the tenets of this website.
Pro this party or that is not a topic for this website.
I was hoping that the political slant of the title would not drive the topic.
Guess I was foolish.
Please take it to emails.
Any further posts will be deleted.
R/
Karl
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