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RE: Can anyone tell me the dangers/anything else..
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by 23bms on November 5, 2008
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I agree that top openers create a space problem. I set mine on two shelf, four foot, castered stainless steel wire racks. I get four small or too large cages on each unit. When I run out of wall space I stop adding to the collection. I have both hinged and sliding tops. Each has its pros and cons. Regardless, I wouldn't recommend my setup to anyone who wants or needs to cram maximum numbers in minimum space.
jrb
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RE: Can anyone tell me the dangers/anything else..
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by 23bms on November 5, 2008
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I, too, have a foul tempered kauthia. No way on earth is that thing going in a front opener.
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RE: Can anyone tell me the dangers/anything else..
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by 23bms on November 5, 2008
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kaouthia. Fingers (mind?) failing. Past my bed time.
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RE: Can anyone tell me the dangers/anything else..
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by puffadder7 on November 5, 2008
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also has anyone used zoomed terrariums, i think they are awsome for venomous,arin
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RE: Can anyone tell me the dangers/anything else..
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by Cro on November 5, 2008
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When I make homemade reptile cages out of wood, I always make them with sliding front glass.
While I have a couple of psycho timber rattlesnakes that will fly out of a cage, for the most part, I do not run into that problem with front opening cages.
Perhaps this is because the snakes have been conditioned to know the difference between feeding time and cage cleaning time.
While I use many of the top opening critter cage aquariums for snakes like Pygmy Rattlesnakes, I use 3 foot, 4 foot, and 8 foot sliding front Neodeshes for all of the big rattlesnakes and cottonmouths.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Can anyone tell me the dangers/anything else..
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by FSB on November 6, 2008
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This topic never seems to get old however much it is addressed, and it's really interesting to read all the different points of view. My own view is that there are no hard-and-fast rules (besides the obvious ones!) for this sort of thing. What matters the most is what works best for each individual and each situation, according to their intents and purposes in maintaining venomous snakes, the size and disposition of their space and the species being kept. What may have worked wonderfully for one person for decades could have disastrous results for another. The main thing is, as Terry Phillips and others have so often said, keeping your fingers out of their mouths.
Personally, like jrb, I've always favored top opening cages. It's what I'm used to and have most always used, and I haven't had any problems in over 30 years. The few close-calls I've experienced had little or nothing to do with which way the cage opened.
I do not relish the idea of being eyeball-to-eyeball with a venomous snake. I can't help but wonder if the man in Ontario who was recently bitten on the lip by a Gaboon viper (elsewhere in this forum) didn't have a front-opening cage? I can't seem to imagine this happening to me, nor would I want to.
On the other hand, I have kept far more viperids than elapids. For active elapids, I have always preferred to use some method of confining the snake alltogether within the cage before it is opened, such as a shift box, closeable hide or divider/insert, so that whichever way the cage is opened becomes a moot point... the snake is not about to come flying out at me from anywhere.
During the warm months, my copperhead population tends to explode as I try to relocate snakes that have been removed from residential areas or other undesirable environments, and I usually like to keep them at least a week or two for observation and to photograph. I find that ten-gallon tanks with secure, locking lids are very convenient and cost-effective for these guys, and if racked on shelves longitudinally so that only one of the small ends is exposed, the occupants do not feel exposed on all sides. (The sides can also be painted or blackened as well).
What I believe causes stress in snakes is not so much the direction they are approached from, but how they are approached. Quick, jerky movements -- yanking the lids off roughly or suddenly, loudly banging things around and jiggling locks and latches... all of these things create vibrations that are disturbing to snakes, and quick, jerky movements are what their eyes are most attuned to seeing. I have crept up on so many snakes in the wild, always from above, without disturbing them that I do not feel this approach to be automatically stressful in and of itself. Similarly, when working with snakes, I try at all times to be utterly quiet, gentle and above all, s-l-o-w in all my movements, easing the locks and latches open and removing the lids without any fast, sudden movements or loud banging or clatter. Never work with these animals if you are feeling rushed or in a hurry! I behave as I do when trying not to disturb someone who is sleeping. Patience and empathy are key. I can typically spot-clean any of my vipers, or change their water etc., while eliciting nothing more than a few curious tongue flicks. I do think that they also develop a certain amount of familiarity with their daily keeper and become used to routines.
Anymore, I will not risk exposing my hand to a bite. It only takes a few extra seconds to use a proper shield or other form of protection when performing routine duties.
For any involved or serious cleaning, it is clearly best to remove the snake from the cage entirely. Another thing I like about the tanks, as in the copperheads above, is that they are standardized and easy to clean and disinfect thoroughly. I always have a few extra ones on hand, all cleaned and ready to go, and what I like to do is set up an entirely new enclosure with fresh substrate, water, etc., and simply hook the snake into it once and you're done. Then the old cage can be cleaned safely at your leisure and the snake only gets moved once, thus minimizing stress.
RE> The much-lamented inability to edit posts on these forums. PROOF-READ! I make as many mistakes and typos as anyone, possibly more, but I always hit the Preview button first and then go back to make any changes before posting. Works for me, most of the time!
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RE: Can anyone tell me the dangers/anything else..
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by 23bms on November 7, 2008
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FSB, re: I have crept up on so many snakes in the wild, always from above, without disturbing them that I do not feel this approach to be automatically stressful in and of itself.
I agree. I spend a lot of time photographing Timbers and Coppers during the Spring and Fall denning seasons. Particularly on very warm days, approaching from above is often the only way to get close. Almost invariably, it is the horizontal approach, regardless of the care taken, that sends the subject flying down the nearest hole. Obviously, on a slope of jumbled rocks and boulders, approach from above isn't always a good idea or even possible, and there is the problem of potentially missing the ones back in the crevices. However, when it is feasible I invariably take that route and usually the subject is lying there just as placidly when I leave as when I arrived.
jrb
Curiosity: On a herp site, the spell checker flags the word denning as misspelled.
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RE: Can anyone tell me the dangers/anything else..
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by Cro on November 7, 2008
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I think a lot of the "do not approach snakes from above" got it's origin in the keeping of Non-Venomous Snakes.
Many of us know that if you reach into a Non-Venomous snakes cage, wether the cage is top opening, or side opening, that the snake is more likely to bite if it sees a hand coming down at it from above.
And we know that if you reach "under" the snake, and lift it up, you are less likely to get bitten.
I can remember many, many times that people would tell me about how their pet snake would always bite them, and I would reach in and take the same snake out of the cage and not get bitten. And after I explained the difference to them, they stopped getting bitten also.
A human hand coming down from above can cause a defensive action in many snakes. We have to remember though that a snake hook coming from above is a much smaller object, and thus will be less of a threat to the snake.
Most predators approach snakes from above in the wild, and I think that some snakes are somewhat tuned to be defensive when approached from above. Think of a Cottonmouth, which will often throw back his head and gape when approached from above.
Think of how birds and tree rats react when a hawk flys over. They immediatly go into a flight mode.
Many variables here. Like how quickly you approach a snake, and how much of your body that the snake sees, how much vibrations you make when you walk toward the snake (more than you think if you are on a talus slope), etc. Those of you who talk about walking up on a snake in the wild close enough to photograph is are doing that "slowly," but if you were to quickly walk up toward the same snake, that snake would quickly try to make an excape. The exception might be a snake that is relying on it's cryptic coloration to hide it, and hoping it is not seen.
A slowly moving human approaching a snake in the wild might not be any more threat to the snake than other things in it's vision, like a tree. Both are tall and thin. The issue is movement, not size of the object.
Anyway, just some ramblings on this interesting topic...
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Can anyone tell me the dangers/anything else..
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by Buzztail1 on November 7, 2008
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I think my position on this has been fairly well documented.
I honestly believe that there is no one particular cage that is suitable for all snakes.
I keep all of my crotalids in top opening cages.
I offer their food item on long forceps which they take readily.
I can pour water into their water bowls without reaching into the cage.
I can scoop out fecal matter with a long (hook length) handled spoon.
I can hook out the animals without being face to face with them or worrying about getting them to balance on the hook because I can't get the clearance between the floor of the cage and the top of the cage.
Just my personal preferences.
I do not personally keep elapids but work with several (mambas and cobras) in both top opening enclosures and side opening enclosures. Both work well for the animals that they house.
NOTHING should be housed in an aquarium with a single screen lid that is held on just by clips or weights. Not even a boa/corn snake/etc.
Here is a link to the step-by-step photo tutorial on how to make a solid lid for any aquarium. Oddly enough, I cannot find the written instruction article that accompanied these photos on this website anymore.
Safe housing is not a luxury but a minimum necessity for any venomous keeper.
I never tire of seeing someone question what caging is best. That means someone is thinking ahead and it gives the rest of us the opportunity to reassess the reasons we are using the cages we do.
Good thread.
R/
Karl
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RE: Can anyone tell me the dangers/anything else..
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by 23bms on November 7, 2008
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re: Think of a Cottonmouth, which will often throw back his head and gape when approached from above.
The characteristic position of cottonmouths, and many other Ags, is an upward tilted head. Is it surprising that they are more aware of overhead movements?
Many, if not most, rattlers tend to hold their head horizontal. Does this effect their overhead awareness? Has anyone experimented with B arietans, which holds its head on a downward angle when agitated, to determine the sensitivity to overhead movement? Just curious.
jrb
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