New Dendrobatids found - experts Forum at VenomousReptiles.org

New Dendrobatids found	Reply
by earthguy on March 4, 2009	Mail this to a friend!
Alright, I know that these aren't snakes, and they're poisonous (not venomous), but what the heck?!! Did you guys see this? http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/28980688/ Why would a poison arrow frog be cryptic? Where's the aposmatic warning coloration? This would be like finding a cryptic coral snake, it just doesn't make sense in terms of what we currently know about biology. So here is your challenge - while we let the froggers study this who wants to take a guess as to the ecology of these TWO cryptic dendrobatids? The way the article read I think that they are poisonous, so that option is out. Thoughts?

RE: New Dendrobatids found	Reply
by Crotalusssp on March 4, 2009	Mail this to a friend!
There must be some advantage to being cryptic in coloration. Poison Dart Frogs acquire their toxins from feeding on insects feeding on certain plants whose secondary metabolites are then used. Could it be possible that species lost connection with their historical prey items due to habitat fragmentation or extinction of the plant life, etc.? The toxins would no longer be able acquired, thus a cryptic pattern would be more advantageous. Another thought would be the predators that typically prey upon these frogs have evolved resistance to the toxins, while the frogs were unable to increase toxicity in response. Just some ideas. Charles

RE: New Dendrobatids found	Reply
by Cro on March 4, 2009	Mail this to a friend!
There is nothing unusual about cryptic colored dart frogs, there are many of them. Folks tend to think all dart frogs should be brightly colored, probably due to the pretty ones making it into zoos, aquariums, photos, and the hobby reptile/amphibian trade. You can see a weird similartiy in humans. The ones that dress in outlandish colors make the pages of magazines, and are chased by the poporatzy. Many of that species are found in a habitat known as Hollywood, and they range out into an area called California. Best Regards John Z

RE: New Dendrobatids found	Reply
by earthguy on March 4, 2009	Mail this to a friend!
Charles, based on the article it sounds like they are still toxic, which would mean that they still have access to their toxic meals. John, I didn't know that there were cryptic Dendrobatids. I guess you learn something new every day. The thing that I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around is that, biologically speaking, it takes a lot of energy for the frogs to to handle those toxins. That is why they advertise their toxicity. Cryptic animals have their own energetics (like finding mates, cryptic behavior, etc.). It just doesn't make sense for an organism to make the energetic and behavioral investment in both toxins and cryptic behavior.

RE: New Dendrobatids found	Reply
by Cro on March 4, 2009	Mail this to a friend!
If you google Dendrobatid "images" you will find many, many photos of drab looking dart frogs. Some are cryptic, and others are just plain solid colors like brown. It is also interesting that the only known predator of these frogs is the snake Liophis ( Leimadophis ) epinephelus, which has developed a partial immunity to the frog toxins. Perhaps if this snake has developed immnity, some of the frogs have evolved so that they are less likely to be seen by these snakes ? One would assume that birds, and perhaps some mammals, would also try to eat these frogs, and that the bright coloration that some of them have would serve as a warning. But that does not explain why there are so many drab or cryptic colored Dendrobatid frogs out there. Another thing to consider, is that bright colored frogs would mostly benefit predatory animals that can see in color. I would guess that most birds see in color, but am not sure about many mammalian predators, or reptilian predators. Best Regards John Z

RE: New Dendrobatids found	Reply
by Crotalusssp on March 8, 2009	Mail this to a friend!
Josh, Thanks for starting an interesting topic. One that could have opened up thoughtful conversation. It is a "bummer" that more people did not chime in and offer ideas. I have been thinking about starting a collection of Dentrobatid's. They are one group of organisms that I have never kept. Charles

RE: New Dendrobatids found	Reply
by earthguy on March 8, 2009	Mail this to a friend!
I, too, would like some Dendrobatids. I think a want a couple if tinctorus. But I think I'll have to wait until the front room is done :(

RE: New Dendrobatids found	Reply
by Cro on March 8, 2009	Mail this to a friend!
Charles and Josh, I was not trying to kill the thread, and I can see much room for us to continue discussing the little critters that are called the "jewels of the rain forest." It is just that some of those jewels do not shine as brite as others. The adaptive advantage of this could be a great topic to speculate on. Keeping dart frogs is a lot of fun, but they are fragile little boogers. I just resently ran across my collection of the newsletters of the now defunct ISSDF, which I was a charter member of. This stands for Internatinal Society for the Study of Dendrobatid Frogs. We existed for several years, and published many great journal articles in the early days of Dendrobatid husbandry. Now that the organization has folded, perhaps the old journals fall into the public domain? I will have to check on that. If it is legal to do so, perhaps I can make the journals available in PDF format ? Best Regards John Z

RE: New Dendrobatids found	Reply
by earthguy on March 9, 2009	Mail this to a friend!
Of course you didn't kill the topic, it was just one of those that didn't take off. Not 'sensational' enough. No worries. Once I'm ready for them, I'll be calling on you for your expertise. And it would be excellent if you could find those articles. It seems that you're a little into everything :-)

RE: New Dendrobatids found	Reply
by Crotalusssp on March 9, 2009	Mail this to a friend!
John, You did not "kill" the topic. I just believe like Josh said, it was not sensationalistic enough for many. I have always been partial to the auratus Dart frogs. I have a spare 20 long aquarium. I believe that would be large enough to get me started. Now I just have to start working towards setting it up. Setting up enclosures can be just as much fun and the actual keeping. =) Take care. Charles

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