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SC pythons came
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by tigers9 on June 25, 2009
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Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSvUKFz0iFM
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iI36kjNdzqvuJ56VQAYJoh6zvugQD99156VG3
Burmese pythons slithering their way north?
By ALYSIA PATTERSON – 1 day ago
AIKEN, S.C. (AP) — One by one, seven slithering Burmese pythons were dumped into a snake pit surrounded by 400 feet of reinforced fence at the Savannah River Ecology Lab in South Carolina.
As they were released last week by a handful of scientists, some of the serpents hissed and lunged, baring their fangs. Others coiled up under the brush. Two slid into a pond in the center of the pit, disappearing in a snaking trail of bubbles. Some were more than 10 feet long and thicker than a forearm. And for the next year all of them will call this snake pit — an enclosed area of tangled brush and trees — home.
Ecologists will track the exotic pythons, all captured in Florida, to determine if they can survive in climates a few hundred miles to the north. Using implanted radio transmitters and data recorders, the scientists will monitor the pythons' body temperature and physical condition.
The test could show whether the giant imported snakes, which can grow up to lengths of 25 feet, are able to spread throughout the Southeast.
The fast-growing population of snakes has been invading southern Florida's ecosystem since 1992, when scientists speculate a bevy of Burmese pythons was released into the wild after Hurricane Andrew shattered many pet shop terrariums.
Now scientists fear this invasive species is silently slithering northward.
"They of course have an impact on native species," said herpetologist Whit Gibbons, a professor of ecology at the University of Georgia and a member of the python project. "If you have a big old python eating five times as much as another species that eats the same prey, it's a competitive thing." The pythons compete with alligators, among other top predators.
Gibbons said a human is "just another prey item" to a python — especially a small human. Pythons are constrictor snakes and have been known to eat people in their native areas of Southeast Asia, he added.
"A 20-foot python, if it grabbed one of us, would bite us and then within just — instantly — seconds, it would be wrapped all the way around you and squeezing the life out of you," Gibbons said.
While pythons don't make a habit of attacking people and most aren't large enough to eat a person, Gibbons called the possibility a "nightmare."
"What about the first kitty cat they eat? Or the first little poodle? They'd love poodles, I imagine," he said.
Mike Dorcas, a professor at Davidson College in North Carolina, has sliced open pythons in Florida to find the remains of white-tailed deer, bobcats and large birds.
Dorcas is leading the experiment at the Savannah River Ecology Lab as part of a collaboration between the U.S. Geological Service, the National Park Service and the University of Florida.
He was prompted by a study released last year showing that the native habitat of Burmese pythons in Asia is a climate match for much of the southeastern U.S.
"The question is really, well, can they survive in a place like South Carolina or North Carolina or Arkansas or Tennessee?" Dorcas said.
One day before releasing the pythons into the pit, Dorcas snapped on latex gloves and surgically implanted radio transmitters into all seven. The transmitters enable scientists to keep track of the pythons' location and allow them to hunt down any that manage to escape.
What are the chances of escape? "We never want to say never. We've made the enclosure as snake-proof as possible but we've taken some other precautions," Dorcas said, noting that all of the pythons are males, so they wouldn't be able to reproduce.
The ecologists also inserted micro data loggers into each snake to record the internal temperature of the python every hour. After a year, Dorcas will remove the chips and download the information into a computer to discover how the snakes thermoregulate in a cooler climate.
Pythons are masters of disguise — slippery and quick — and all but one of the serpents was invisible within minutes of being deposited into the pit.
So counting pythons in the wild is a daunting task. Scientists don't have an accurate estimate of how many pythons are in Florida.
"It's certainly in the thousands, or tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands," said Gibbons.
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RE: SC pythons came
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by Adamanteus70 on June 25, 2009
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Quote: "What about the first kitty cat they eat? Or the first little poodle? They'd love poodles, I imagine," he said. - Excellent, hopefully they will remove the feral cats that are non native that destroy so much native wildlife.
Jesus Christ I had no idea Whit was on the fuzzy kitten side of the HSUS making such ignorant statements. Give me a break, my heart is breaking here. Save the puppies and kitties from the monster serpents. What a way for a herpetologist to fuel the stereotype of the demon serpents sent from hell to kill us all.
Quote - "Scientists don't have an accurate estimate of how many pythons are in Florida.
"It's certainly in the thousands, or tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands," said Gibbons"
"hundreds of thousands" huh?
Sounds like the HSUS/PETA mentality has even gotten to infamous herpetologists making such anti reptile statements as those. Staements such as these have now completly changed the way I look at that facility now.
Paul
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RE: SC pythons came
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by Cro on June 25, 2009
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Good to see that you noticed that Paul.
Whit has never been a strong supporter for individual reptile keeping, at least from what I have seen.
Just because he writes herpetology books does not mean that he is in any way all that supportive of us. Where the next government grant money will come from is probably of far more interest to him.
He was that way, many years ago, when I invited him to speak at the Georgia Herpetological Society meetings. He did show up, and presented a "clinical" program, but showed little interest in the individual reptile keepers. As a matter of fact, he brough along a grad student who was far more interesting and informative.
The unique animals that were kept at the SRP like the Leucistic Cottonmouth, and the Albino Canebrake Rattlesnake were never made available for breeding to outside animals to keep the gene pool of those mutations going. Whit could have easily set that up, if he had cared.
Unfortunatly, that is more of the mentality that we see in many of the University Herp departments these days.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: SC pythons came
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by tigers9 on June 26, 2009
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http://www2.morganton.com/content/2009/jun/25/scott-hollifield-python-project-bound-go-horribly-/
Scott Hollifield: Python project bound to go HORRIBLY WRONG
By Scott Hollifield | The McDowell News
As the crow flies - or more appropriately as the snake slithers - the Savannah River Ecology Lab in South Carolina is roughly 200 miles from my house.
Scientists there have built a large snake pit and stocked it with snakes implanted with high-tech gizmos to determine if Florida's Burmese python problem will spread across the Southeastern U.S. and into my backyard.
I can almost hear them hissing at the door. Or it could be a gas leak.
According to a story by the Associated Press, the source I turn to for terrifying reports about giant man-eating reptile experiments in states where the governor goes for unannounced, stress-relieving hikes along Argentina's curvaceous and seductive Appalachian Trail, scientists are monitoring seven Burmese pythons dumped into a "snake-proof" pit to see how they react to a more northern climate.
In sunny Florida, according to AP, the non-native snakes were likely introduced into the ecosystem by the pet shop terrarium-smashing Hurricane Andrew in '92. The snakes began to breed like rabbits in the wild, whereupon they ate those rabbits and continued to breed like Burmese pythons until there were "thousands if not hundreds of thousands" slithering around Florida, gulping down the native creatures like tourists at an all-you-can-eat seafood buffet, according to herpetologist Whit Gibbons, professor of ecology at the University of Georgia and a member of the python project.
Gibbons downplayed the danger to AP writer Alysia Patterson.
"A 20-foot python, if it grabbed one of us, would bite us and then within just - instantly - seconds, it would be wrapped all the way around you and squeezing the life out of you," Gibbons said.
WHAT?! HOLY %$#!
We've got this to worry about now? In addition to swine flu, job insecurity and North Korea's nuclear threats, we could possibly have an influx of giant snakes that can squeeze harder than Great Aunt Eunice at the family reunion?
If there's one thing that watching the Sci Fi Channel instead of spending quality time with my family has taught me, it's that the South Carolina python project, despite good intentions, is bound to go HORRIBLY WRONG.
Sure, its goal on the surface is far from ominous, but one of the scientists - not Gibbons, he's a good man - will turn out to be working for a nefarious, clandestine government agency that wants to turn the pythons into a superweapon to counteract North Korea's nuclear threat. There's some radiation involved, some gene splicing, blah, blah - I'm usually flipping through the channels during the scientific mumbo jumbo, waiting for the carnage to begin - and then the carnage begins.
The superpythons go on a rampage, as per their reputation. A guard is squeezed to death. A chubby scientist is swallowed whole. A sexy, sassy herpetologist who takes no guff from her male counterparts loses her shirt and barricades herself in a secluded section of the lab. The head of the project team tries to contact the South Carolina governor, but the governor is row-boating in the Bermuda Triangle with a lady friend from the Lost City of Atlantis.
The superpythons escape the lab, catch I-26 outside Irmo, S.C., and eventually end up, mean and hungry, in my backyard.
That's where I, played by Lorenzo Lamas, and the sexy, sassy, shirtless herpetologist, played by an actress who is even less accomplished than Lorenzo Lamas, battle the superpythons with nothing but our wits and an AH-64 Apache attack helicopter.
That's what I fear.
It may seem farfetched, but I can almost hear them hissing at my door. No, I'm pretty sure now it's a gas leak.
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RE: SC pythons came
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by Ptk on June 27, 2009
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LOL!
Way to go Scott!!! Toss in some poorly English dubbed Chinese actors and one giant lizard and you got yourself a movie!!
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RE: SC pythons came
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by CAISSACA on June 28, 2009
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Going back to the original post and Cro's comments:
- Whit's job is as an ecologist, not as a herpetoculture supporter. Herpetoculture does not have an automatic right to the support of academic herpetologists, especially when some of the consequences of herpetoculture may have negative ecological impact (overcollecting of wild stocks, introduction of non-native species, etc.). For most ecologists, the fact that S. Fla is now an open-air introduced species lab. will not count in favour of herpetoculture as a sustainable or beneficial activity, irrespective of whether it was reckless owners or a hurricane that released the alien species.
- Having looked at the interview and seen him giving the cat/poodle quote, I am pretty sure I detected more than a little bit of mockery in his voice. I cannot imagine someone like Whit being at all sorry to see a cat or poodle disappear down a python's gullet. Of course the different snippets were all taken individually out of context.
- Many would argue that keeping the leucistic/albino mutations out of the gene pool was a good thing.... Again, I can't quite figure out why anyone would think that SREL *owes* it to anyone to make these animals available.
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RE: SC pythons came
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by Cro on June 28, 2009
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Wolfgang, thanks for your reply. You are right that Whit is not a herpetoculture supporter. He really has never been that to much extent. And that is his choice to make. And I will agree that he is a damn good Ecologist, with interests ranging from reptiles and amphibians to plants and insects.
And I agree that a python eating Fefe the poodle is very, very funny. It is like the Okefenokee Swamp Park, where there are signs posted everywhere saying: Danger, Alligators, and do not leave your pets here. But, every year, northern tourists visit the park, ignore the signs,and leave the pet dogs tied to trees on the grassy areas next to the canal banks, and go see the exhibits. When they return, little Fefe is well inside of a alligator, who is sitting there with a leash leading out of its mouth, LOL.
However, I will have to disagree with you a bit. While I do not think that the SREL owes anybody the right to breed private animals with unique mutations, I do think, that as scientist, they have a obligation to the scientific community to keep a unique mutant gene pool going so that further studies can be conducted.
Due to the rarity of these animals, that might require working with outside keepers who also own these animals.
My point is, a albino or leucistic animal that lives out its life as a curiosity in a cage loses scientific value when it dies. If it is paired, and allowed to produce Hets, or more albinos or leucistics, then future scientists might just learn something about gene expression of coloration and pattern in these snakes.
You do not think that we know all there is to know concerning genetic expression of mutant traits that control coloration and pattern in snakes, do you ?
Lets forget the $$ factor, that unfortunatly often comes into play, and just look at it from a science standpoint. Take the patternless copperheads that the University of Kansas had back in the 1970's. Those animals are lost to science, floating in a pickle jar, because the blood line was not kept going. All we have is photos.
It is my belief that we can learn much more from a living blood line, than we can from a snake in a pickle jar that has been floating there 40 years.
I would bet that if you came across a strangly wierd mutant reptile, that you would consider breeding it to produce hets, to keep that strange mutant geneform going for future scientific study by yourself and your students. I really can not see you letting it live out its life in a cage as a curiosity.
That is unfortunatly what happened at the SREL site. The snakes were mere caged circus freeks. What value do they have that way ? Just a photo op for visitors.
I will not get into other dubious science that has come from the SREL and UGA, but it is out there. Lots of it.............
What I am trying to say is that SREL and UGA are not perfict. And some of the folks who work for them do things that I do not agree with.
I think that You and I would both set up the scientific studies of the pythons a bit different.
And I hope that a bit of criticism from other scientists might help those folks take a hard look at some of the parts of their studies and hopefully they take off the rose colored glasses, and wind up creating studies that serve the scientific community a little bit better.
Best Regards
John Z
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by CAISSACA on June 29, 2009
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John,
Thanks for your thoughts.
Aberrant/mutant specimens... personally, it's not my area, and judging from the literature, there are not too many others who find them all that interesting either. If I had one and someone came to me with a serious research proposal, I would of course hand them over. Whether I would hand them on to the private sector or not would depend on circumstances, and whether whoever took them could convince me that he/she wasn't just taking them for the $$$ - or offered to give me a sufficient share ;-)
The python study - well, given unlimited means and no political/social/ethical/financial constraints, sure, we could design a better, more conclusive study. That's not the way things work though. I would imagine that Dorcas, Gibbons, and the others involved would have spent considerable time and effort discussing amongst themselves and with their superiors (and quite possibly the authorities) what kind of experiments they could do and get funded, and without having the press and public opinion totally against them. Ideally you might want to radiotag and release 50+ Burmese and free them into the countryside to see what happens - but can you imagine the press reaction to that? Most important of all, you could never test whether they can reproduce in natural conditions, because you could not guarantee finding every nest site and destroy every egg before it hatches.
Instead, they designed a study that tests one key assumption, whether pythons are able to withstand the SREL climate at all under the kind of conditions that would be optimal for them **given that climate**. Even if SREL is warmer than normal, you can still go back to climatic maps and plot the nearest locality with equivalent conditions. It's a perfectly reasonable question to ask, and the experiment (from what we can gather from the news!) seems appropriate to answer it. I guess the key to the whole thing will be the interpretation of the results, and, as usual, how the media manipulate these results - admittedly a major concern.
Cheers,
WW
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