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Snakebite treatment
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by ViperJim on January 14, 2010
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After reading "Being bit by the big one" in "Articles", I have to share my bite story and ask for more informed advice. I was bitten by Crotalus Adamanteus in 1993 while working as herpetologist for a wildlife park in Georgia. During a snake show with about 40 guests, a juvenile Eastern popped me good with one fang,I had to pull the fang out, the venom was dripping from the hole... it was not a dry bite !!! I believe in practicing what I preach, so on the way out of the park I stopped at a lawn mower, removed the plug wire, placed my palm on the spark plug and the bare wire on my hand. I had my helper pull repeatedly as I moved it around on my hand and up my arm to try and stop the spread. I had the buzz, and dry mouth, and allot of pain before I zapped it with the mower. I had read that using this technique was saving lives in South America,in an article in Outdoor Life mag back in the late 70`s, by neutralizing most of the hemotoxins.
My hand never got too bad, there was no terrible swelling, or loss of tissue, even though the ER was prepped for amputation I was told later.
I had to read the antivenin bags because the snakes were all in latin, so why do they even ask what bit you??? They dont know Adamanteus from Atrox, Horridus, or a king snake. And I remember being told as a kid to take the snake (dead of course) with you to the hospital if you dont know what it was. Well from knowing nurses and Dr.s, that is the last thing they want you to do, and unless it has a rattle they have no idea what you have with you anyway. I am a firm believer in this first aid for snake bite, it also works on bee and wasp stings as well. So other than the fact they dont "sell" it to you, why is this not reccomended??? The Dr. followed up with me for 5 years, and was totally blown away with what I did and the results. The affects of the neurotoxins lasted about a week, but the pain and swelling were arrested instantly by the DC shock. The swelling got bad enough that I could just barely close my hand, but I never had to experience the horrible cutting, like in the pictures shown on this site. Since then I have used it on a Brown Recluse bite, and could feel it tingling up my arm killing the poison. Of course I did not know when the Recluse bit me until I already had a golfball sized puss pocket on my wrist. It tingled for about an hour and went away, leaving a dime sized scar. But as many of us Herps have found the hard way, the average Dr. has no training at all on snakebite treatment, and they only get out the book when they have one on the table.??..
As confused and chaotic as it was in the ER for me,, I can not imagine what would happen if my Gaboon or a Cobra got me... kiss your butt goodbye!!!
So for my question, what are your thoughts on High Voltage DC shock on Hemotoxic bites?? and Why does it work??, and Why is it not taught to our kids as the FIRST First Aid ???
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RE: Snakebite treatment
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by BGF on January 14, 2010
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There is absolutely no evidence supporting that it works. Snake venoms are made up of proteins. Just ordinary proteins. Nothing special about them. So if the voltage actually worked, it would also denature every other protein in the area.
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RE: Snakebite treatment
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by BGF on January 14, 2010
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My favorite incident that happened when this became a fad due to atrociously written outdoors magazine article, was the one death that occurred when some yahoos didn't appreciate the rather subtle difference between DC and AC/DC. Rather than using a battery, they cut a lamp wire, attached the ends to him, and plugged it back in. ZAP!!! :p
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RE: Snakebite treatment
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by pictigaster1 on January 14, 2010
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Man oh man I hate to even read this kind of crap.Guess what I tried it on a atrox bite after the outdoor article.It has about the exact value as a extractor or chicken poop rubbed in the wound.It is a dangerous thing to support and could cause the death of some one who thinks it might work.Venom dripping out the fang proves nothing as to what went in you.I will try not to insult you but you state you are a herpetologist all I can say is where did you get your degree.The university of urban legend.For you to state that it worked for you is to place human life in danger and I for one will state the truth.It does not work in any way shape or form.Please all who read that it may work dis regard that statement and seek medical help.The best snake bite kit is a set of car keys to rush you to a hospital and a cell phone to call 911 or to keep the hospital informed of your arrival.
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RE: Snakebite treatment
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by pictigaster1 on January 14, 2010
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Also as far as a recluse bite goes most bites have been proven to be staff infections of some kind.That is exactly what you have discribed.The bite of a recluse is an area of dis collard skin that rots from the center out not a puss pocket.Then treating the bite in such a fashion is in fact insain and irresponsible ..
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RE: Snakebite treatment
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by Cro on January 15, 2010
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Jim, it is good to hear that the bite from the Eastern Diamondback was not too severe.
The problem is that stories like yours are considered anecdotal evidence, as are the stories from the missionary folks using the same technique, until actual scientific studies are conducted.
Dr. Fry states, "There is absolutely no evidence supporting that it works." I tend to disagree with that a bit, and would say "no SCIENTIFIC evidence," as, I do consider anecdotal evidence to have value.
I believe that anecdotal evidence, or, folk lore evidence, can lead us to new cures. This has happened time and time again when extracts from plants have been found to have medicinal value.
The ordinary proteins of snake venom CAN be rendered ineffective (in a test tube) by many chemical things, like Hydrogen Peroxide, Potassium Permanganate, Sodium Hypochlorite (Clorox), and many more.
Snake venom proteins can also be denatured by heat. If you had chosen to plunge a red hot metal rod into the location of the snake bite "immediately" (within one minute), following the bite, it is likely that the venom proteins would have been destroyed, along with a lot of the surrounding human tissue proteins. But, then you would have been recovering from a bad burn, instead of a snake bite.
I am not as skeptical as my friends here about "alternative" treatments for snake bite.
However, first and foremost, if someone is bitten by a venomous snake, they need to get to a hospital as quickly as possible, as Antivenin is a proven effective way to treat venomous snake bite, despite the incompetence of the doctors you find at hospitals. (that is why anyone bitten by a venomous snake in the US should insist that the doctor contact the Rocky Mountain or other Poison Control Center, and Miami / Dade Venom One for consultation ). You should not waste time with alternative treatments following a bite. Time is tissue, so, get your butt to a hospital quickly.
Now, that I have added the above disclaimer, we can get back on topic, and stir the pot a bit more.
Before anecdotal treatments will ever be considered by science, they have to be tested in "correctly" designed scientific experiments. (not experiments designed intentionally to fail by folks whose salary is supported by the use of antivenin treatments).
That is why I think that the use electric current does have potential in snake bite treatment. Perhaps Jim did denature the snake venom proteins from his bite, along with a lot of the surrounding human protein tissue with his electrical shocks from the lawn mower motor ? The fact is, we DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE, as, no scientific tests were conducted.
A different form of electrical energy is used by doctors in the treatment of cancers. A transducer with a specific focal length is used to send a wave of energy (transformed electrical energy) to a specific area where it heats the cancer tissue to a temperature that denatures the proteins of that cancer, and kills it. It is actually a sound wave at that point, but it is vibrating so quickly, that it generates heat in the tissue and bakes the cancer cells. It is quite possible that a similar mechanism could be used to heat snake venom "immediatly" following a bite, while the venom was concentrated in a small area of tissue. And it is possible that some surrounding tissue would also be damaged in a burn like fashion. However, the damage from a venom spreads, while the damage from a burn does not. Thus, there is potential in using electrical current in the "immediate" (less than one or two minutes following the bite) treatment of a snake bite. However, that does not mean that you should be shocking yourself with a spark plug.
I am researching the possibility of creating a small, hand held device the size of a flash light, that might work in just the way I am talking about. Directing energy to a small area of tissue to create heat that might destroy venom proteins and create a localized burn. Such a device would have to be for veterinary use only, as FDA approval is probably not possible.
Anyway, I guess what I am saying, is that SCIENTIFIC testing should be done on many other potential snake bite treatments. The use of plant based, electrical based, chemical based, vaccine based, and genetic based therapies should all be tested. Amazing things turn up in science all the time. Only a few years ago, the world though there were only a couple of venomous lizards.
Scientists have to be careful about avoiding new ideas, just because they are not scientifically proven yet. We loose a bit of innovation and experimentation in thinking that way. Sometimes, the most far out ideas turn out to be the ones that actually work.
Well, now that I have thrown a rock at a hornets nest, I will sit back and watch the swarm, LOL.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Snakebite treatment
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by FSB on January 15, 2010
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I am reminded of a crusty Texan back in the 60's who was my brother's mentor in the old pit-show milking business. During one of his shows, he was nailed on the hand by a good-sized WDB he was holding. Being a consummate professional showman, he continued his talk as if nothing had happened, but a lady in the crowd noticed a trickle of blood running down his arm. "Oh my god," she exclaimed in horror, "did he bite you?"
"Yes ma'am," the milker replied in his slow Texas drawl,"and if anybody's interested, rattlesnake venom burns like hell."
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