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Ontario is clamping down on exotic regulations
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by CanadianSnakeMan on February 5, 2011
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http://www.wspa.ca/latestnews/2010/new_ontario_bill_to_prevent_tragic_tiger_maulings.aspx
The I'm sure that part at the end where they say that all dangerous wildlife will only be able to be housed by professional zoos will include venomous snakes.
Hopefully they'll listten to reason.
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RE: Ontario is clamping down on exotic regulations
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by tommyblake7376 on February 6, 2011
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This is what all of you people deserve especially little chat room moderates on a power trip like buzztail. You all refuse to fight for your hobby and interest. Instead you all give up ground by saying things like venomous reptiles aren't pets. Although I understand that you people are trying to show that you are responsible what you all fail to realize is that is the success lies in attack ! Not retreat ! Only a lunatic would thing that we as a community would gain ground by giving up ground. It is amazing how you all still hold your ridiculous little ideologies as they fail you before your eyes. We should have been selling more hybrids, more morphs, more venomoids, and more hots. We should have tried to normalize the hobby asap then we all could have quarreled about venomoids once we had control of the situation. But instead of being militant and uniform like most of the communist advocacy that are against us are we promoted contentious and ignorant concepts amongst ourselves. I am happy they are passing this law because now all of you stupid moron who failed to listen to my warnings will have some bureaucrat come to your house and take your property because your little ignorant, malignant, and sour attitudes failed you and the rest of us. And to me watching use fail because of your stupidity is better than owning my snake. The fact that you come on here and call your snakes "specimens" instead of pets, the fact that you mocked free handling and venomoids and promoted the feminine, cowardly, and base idea that we should fear our pets and treat them as if they are always hostile to us ( a delusion every hot keeper knows is a lie)and the fact that you all exploited those who get bit serves you all right. Your ignorance is so cancerous that it is criminal and now some of you who keep your pets will become criminals and it serves you right ! You deserve to be put in jail for that fact that you and your feminine and base little ideas failed the reptile community ! My snake is my fucking property and the government should not have the right to tell me what pet I can and cannot own ! If people can choose to drink and smoke and they can send me to Iraq to get mutilated I should be able to own whatever I want. The market adapts to the needs of the people. What all of you clowns didn't understand, and still don't understand, is that they are not banning are animals because they are dangerous, bites are far and few compared to other animals like dogs, THEY ARE TAKING AWAY ARE PETS BECAUSE THEY ADHERE TO AN IDEOLOGY WHICH WANTS TO BAN THE OWNERSHIP OF ALL PETS AND THEY HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. THEY DONT CARE IF YOU ARE KEEPING THEM IN A STATE OF THE ART FACILITY WHERE YOU NEED TO HAVE YOUR EYE BALL SCANNED TO OPEN THE CAGE. THEY ARE JUST EXTREMIST WHO TRICKED YOU PEOPLE INTO FEELING GUILTY ABOUT THE PETS YOU OWN AND THUS RENDERED YOU UNWILLING TO DEFEND YOUR SELVES. THAT IS WHY THE HERP COMMUNITY DOESNT STICK TOGETHER LIKE THE GAYS OR THE ATHEIST, BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONLY INTEREST GROUP WHOS LEADERS WERE DUMB ENOUGH TO BE TRICKED INTO FEELING GUILTY ABOUT THE PETS THEY OWN WHEN THEY HHAD NO REAL REASON TO ! That is why you call them specimens because you all feel guilty. And you shouldn't ! This country was not built on the concept that the government should decide what's best for you. They overregulated the anti venom industry and made it to tough to sell our anti venom and then screamed every time someone got bit, which was about once every year, while dogs attack and kill hundreds every day ! And use still feel guilty about what you do, use still choose retreat rather than attack, and use all still adhere to your petty ideas which failed you. Use all deserve everything you get. I am just glad I get to watch.
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RE: Ontario is clamping down on exotic regulations
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by CanadianSnakeMan on February 8, 2011
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Thanks Tommy,
Sorry about my previous post, I should have added the caveat that if anyone has anything PRODUCTIVE to say, then please chime in. My fault for not being more specific.
I fail to see how communism has anything to do with exotic legislation, and your comparison of other viewpoints as feminine in some way is not only ignorant but offensive. You are what's wrong with this hobby. Take your soap box to somewhere people care what you have to say... until you can provide something productive to the problem of legislation that is.
Karl, hasn't this guy been banned yet?
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RE: Ontario is clamping down on exotic regulations
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by vanerka on February 8, 2011
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That incident is tragic and hopefully they wont take it out on the private sector of keeping...
Thanks, Eric
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RE: Ontario is clamping down on exotic regulations
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by Rob_Carmichael on February 8, 2011
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Folks just need to ignore trolls and pretend he or she or it doesn't exist. To get back to the original post, it's going to be an uphill battle and one that I think will be nearly impossible to win. It's not a pretty sight because we have utterly failed to police ourselves (trolls sort of prove my point as demonstrated by the regular posts I see from these folks). My venomous herps live at my zoo so I'm one of the fortunate ones in that I can work with hots in a state where its illegal to keep by the private sector. I feel bad for my friends who are responsible keepers around the US who do things right and for the right reasons; they have become few and far between and I think the only hope we have is to somehow come up with a very strict permit system (and one that comes with a financial cost) much like that in falconry which I realize is comparing apples to oranges. Until we can demonstrate that we can keep idiots from keeping venomous reptiles we'll never win the battle.
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RE: Ontario is clamping down on exotic regulations
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by theemojohnm on February 8, 2011
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I agree, Rob. It's a damn shame, too. This was the year that my nature center was to open, and hopefully, it still will. It's a sad realization, but I am becoming more and more convinced that the majority of folks these days cannot handle keeping anything as complex as a goldfish, let alone venomous snakes.
I think proposing a permit system is the best bet, and that is what myself, and my other P.W.H.S. administrators are in the process of doing, with regard to the legislation suggested for PA.
The whole gist of their argument was that some guy who works at an exotic sanctuary sees too many crocodilians come into his facility that were purchased by irresponsible owners who could no longer keep them. What about stray dogs, or better yet, cats?! If we were to compare numbers, the number of stray cats or dogs buries the number of neglected crocs or venomous snakes, or irresponsible owners of! No government agency has to the right to suggest what animals I can own. Sure, I like dogs and cats, but I enjoy working with herps much, much more.
I think that 'we' (the serious, logical minority) need to start collaborating on suggesting a permitting system. I would be all for facility inspection, annual permit fees, etc. I have always been a fan of Florida's system, and I still see some improvements that could make that system even better. In all honesty, as unfortunate as it is, a permit system, I feel, would be good for the hobby in the long-run. And, it would eliminate many of the morons who shouldn't be keeping these animals in the first place, as those in it for the 'ego factor', wouldn't go through the trouble, or meet the qualifications.
Take Care,
-John Mendrola
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RE: Ontario is clamping down on exotic regulations
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by reptaquatic on February 8, 2011
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In my opinion, the best change that could happen to this industry is the implementation of a statute similar to that of what people that keep horses have. For example, in Florida the statute "provides that an equine activity sponsor, an equine professional, or any other person shall not be liable for an injury to or the death of a participant resulting from the inherent risks of equine activities. The definitions for participant, equine professional, and what constitutes an "inherent risk" are provided. Liability will not be limited by statute, however, where the equine professional or sponsor knew the tack or equipment was faulty, failed to make reasonable and prudent efforts to determine the ability of the participant to engage safely in the equine activity, owns or is otherwise in lawful possession of the land or facilities where the injury is attributable to a known dangerous latent condition, commits an act or omission that constitutes willful or wanton disregard for the safety of the participant, or intentionally injures the participant. Posting of warning signs alerting participants to the limitation of liability by law is also required." (via Mitch @ DRB)
A statute like this would effectively prevent local and state governments from passing restrictive "knee jerk" laws in response to the actions of a very few select individuals.
Aside from this, I MAY be in favor of a permit system or even a registration system for potentially dangerous animals... ie, venomous, large constrictors, big cats, bears etc. A system like this would greatly compliment a statute like the one previously mentioned, as it would allow law enforcement to further hold an individual responsible rather than the entire industry.
At the same time, I spend enough resources on my animals and would feel that a permit/registration system is still punishing me for the actions of others since I will then have to pay even more to keep my animals or subject myself, family and property to the possibility of inspections.
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RE: Ontario is clamping down on exotic regulations
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by Rob_Carmichael on February 9, 2011
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I'm not sure I am following the logic of the equine statute. It's one thing for someone to fall off a horse and hurt themselves. It's an entirely different thing to get nailed by a potentially deadly herp w/out having ready access to proper antivenin. Maybe I'm missing the gist of the post. Sure, we all spend resources to care for our animals but implementing a permit/fee system wouldn't be more than $100-200 or something around that; for those of us who keep animals, that shouldn't be a factor. If you can't afford the cost of a permit, how in the heck can you afford an expensive trip to the vet? Just my .02.
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RE: Ontario is clamping down on exotic regulations
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by reptaquatic on February 9, 2011
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I was referring to a possibility of a "permit per animal", which could get really expensive. If it's just a flat yearly permit fee, like a hunting license, I'd be very comfortable with that.
As per the equine statute, a similar statute would mean that the state would have to recognize that people that keep these animals and the people around them are aware of the potential dangers associated with these animals, hopefully, making it more difficult for states to pass restrictive laws effecting the entire state when one person is hurt.
You never see a news report of a horse kick victim, nor do you hear about legislators trying to pass laws.
I believe 43 states have statutes for horses. Florida even has a similar statute for alligator farms, farmers and the people that work on them.
It certainly wouldn't hurt anything having such provisions in place.
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RE: Ontario is clamping down on exotic regulations
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by CanadianSnakeMan on February 9, 2011
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The permit system looks like it's already being proposed for Ontario, but the fine print prevents anyone from owning an animal that may endanger life or be a risk if it escapes. Only accredited zoos will be able to hold such animals.
As it stands right now, the private zoo whose reptiles I'm managing (along with my entire venomous collection) is not accredited, and I don't think we have the type of funds required to pay for all the CAZA fees... This is all quite a shame but Rob's right, the hobby hasn't policed itself enough to show that it deserves to operate unregulated. I can only hope that we can scrounge up the money to move locations and build a better facility in a more profitable location and still afford to become accredited.
It's a sad state of affairs when every living system on Earth is in decline due to human tampering and governments prohibit a small but avid segment of society from propogating life in captivity that may soon no longer be found in the wild.
A permit system I can stomach and I agree that it's probably a very good idea, but an outright ban of certain animals because they have a bad reputation doesn't make sense to me. If someone can prove to a higher authority that they can keep a venomous snake safely, then they should be allowed to.
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