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RE: mamba's
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by stopgetinpopped on January 4, 2004
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There are slight variations in the toxicity of all the mambas venom according to mouse LD50's. In all honesty the variations are rather insignificant due to the fact that they all could easily put little XX's in your eyes. I wouldn't prefer the bite of one over the other, as all produce an extremely life threatening situation.
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RE: mamba's
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by LarryDFishel on January 4, 2004
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Um... More than slight differences...
From BGF's web site: (http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/)
Subcutaneous LD-50 (mg/kg)
Black: 0.32
Western Green: 0.7
Jameson's: 1.0
Eastern Green: 3.05
That makes the black 3 times as powerful as the Jameson's and 10 times as powerful as the eastern green. Of course that's in mice, not humans but given that they are such similar toxins that attack humans and mice is roughly the same way, I would expect the relative toxicity to be similar in humans. But yes, you probably don't want to be bitten by any of them...
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RE: mamba's
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by stopgetinpopped on January 4, 2004
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They are similar toxins, but mice and humans are not that similar, many animals are more or less susceptible to different snake venoms. LD 50's do not mean much to humans.
However a bite from a Black Mamba does not make you 10 times more dead than an E. A. Green Mamba.
So keep that in mind. The route you take doesn't change the end result in death.
When talking about milligrams of venom when it only takes supposedly 10 mg to kill it doesn't alter the result.
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RE: mamba's
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by LarryDFishel on January 4, 2004
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No, there's not much difference between being 1X dead and 10X dead, but there's a huge difference between being 0.3X dead and 3X dead. If it takes 10 mg of black mamba venom to kill you and the LD50 happens to be a good indicator in this case (I don't know for sure that it is) then it would take 100 mg of eastern green venom to kill you, and I don't beleive they can muster that much. Even if they can then we're still talking about a situation where the black only has to give you 1/10 of it's venom load to kill you and an eastern green needs a full-on maximum bite to do it. That sounds significant to me.
Or, as a wise man once said: "There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead."
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RE: mamba's
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by stopgetinpopped on January 5, 2004
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Larry,
Thats the whole point, An Eastern doesn't require a "full load" to kill a human. LD 50's are usefull for some things but not nescessarily to accomidate how bad a bite from a species is. Both species are more than capable with little effort to produce fatalities.
The question posted was simple ? why must everyone start an argument?
When you look at how much venom a milligram is, the easiest simple way to explain how much venom we are talking about. Keep in mind, very simply put.
One chocolate M&M candy weighs one gram, chop that candy into 1,000 equal pieces thats 1 milligram, now if it takes 1 mg. (LD 50 speaking) to kill a human or 10 or 50 or 100mg. All the mambas are fully capable of delivering all those amounts in a bite! Without treatment death is all but certain.
There is no argument, so please don't send this down the I'm right and you are wrong road.
I answered a question that was asked, I answered it differently than you, doesn't make one answer right and the other wrong.
In your mind that is a significant difference, in mine and toxicologically speaking that is not that significant.
The question has been answered.
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RE: mamba's
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by BGF on January 5, 2004
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The key to the LD50 studies is that they are actually tremendously useful in predicting the effects on humans since both are mammals. Of course it won't be exact but it certainly does provide a reasonable roadmap (in contrast to a direct translation). This is particularly true for more intensive studies that examine a single pathway (eg prothrombin activating effects on blood) or receptor (ie examining actions upon postsynaptic receptors on nerve tissue using an organ bath assay).
The major difference between the two mambas may indeed be flipped if the model organism was changed to birds instead of mammals since the greens and black have a preference for each respectively.
At the end of the day in regards to clinical effects, the relative LD50s do provide a reasonable indication of which bite is likely to be, drop for drop, more severe. Other factors of course have to be factored in, particularly venom yield (which is much higher in the black). Of course, dead is dead. Anything else is academic ;-)
Cheers
B
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
ARC-APD Research Fellow
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
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RE: mamba's
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by LarryDFishel on January 5, 2004
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stopgetinpopped,
First off, before you dismiss the debate with "I answered the question and you didn't like the answer", the question was how the venom strengths compared and your answer was "it doesn't matter" which isn't really an answer. For reference, the original poster didn't specify that he meant in humans, so if he wants to know about small mammals he can see the LD50's in my first reply here which we can probably agrre will be fairly accurate.
I hate to seem argumentative, but I'm going to go one more step here because I feel that supplying a reasonable answer to the original poster is more important than which of us is right or gets our feelsing hurt by being contradicted.
LD50's are based on DRY WEIGHT of venom. Either that's more than you seem to think or venom yield is less thatn you think. You say it doesn't matter if it takes 1mg or 100mg to kill you, but it matters a lot if a full grown example of the snake in question can only manage a MAXIMUM of 95mg of DRY VENOM as is published for angusticeps.
You seem to think that angusticeps bites are always or nearly always fatal and I don't believe that is the case. I base that entirely on lack of reports to the contrary. I see lots of sources saying that untreated black mamba bites have a nearly 100% mortality rate, and a few vague references that untreated eastern green bites CAN cause mortality. If you have some reliable source (or your own research...you give no info whatsoever in your profile) that says differently then I would love to check it out and will be happy to report back that I was wrong.
Until then I stand by the thought that MAYBE dead is is signifacantly different from ALMOST CERTAINLY dead.
Yes, both are dangerous. No, neither should be taken lightly. Yes, they CAN both kill you. That was not the question.
Note: This will probably all come across sounding very confrontational, but I don't mean it that way. If it were just you and I in a room discussing this, I would have moved on to something else a long time ago, but others are reading this, and I believe you are giving incorrect info and so I will try to get at who is right (which may not be possible) not because one of us needs to "win", but because the person asking the question should get the right answer. I mean no disrespect.
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RE: mamba's
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by stopgetinpopped on January 5, 2004
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So maybe we should ask the first poster what it is he wants to know.
Are we talking rodents, people , toxicity or how much more dangerous the bite of black mamba is from the others. Are we looking at survivability comparisons of the 4?
To be honest the clinical symptomology of lets say 20 mg. Dry Venom from each of the four snakes injected by the same route to 4 people of the same size and health, is not significantly different. All will lead to respiratory collaspe (among other effects) in a very short time.
So lets answer the original question, the black mambas venom IS stronger than the others, possibly 10X stronger than the E. A. Green Mamba. However the outcome is not significantly different. If envenomated by any of the 4, you're in a life threatening situation. You require prompt and correct medical treatment in order to survive the situation. Make sure you have Antivenom on hand and a good reliable doctor.
Larry, does that satisfy the problem. If not, than you answer the original question.
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RE: mamba's
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by LarryDFishel on January 5, 2004
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> To be honest the clinical symptomology of lets say 20 mg. Dry Venom from each of the four snakes injected by the same route to 4 people of the same size and health, is not significantly different. All will lead to respiratory collaspe (among other effects) in a very short time.
On what do you base this statement?
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