|
RE:And another from me.......
|
Reply
|
|
by KingCobraFan on June 17, 2005
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Terry,
So your contributions aren't on the discussion
table, huh? Then where do you get off asking for Bill Haast's? As for your "simple questions", you talk like people running a venom line are supposed to feed their animals off forceps in as naturalistic a setting as possible. Breeding strategies? Give me a break. And while I'm most certainly a Haast fan, "star struck" doesn't enter the picture, I'm too old for that. You take shots at people, in your arrogant, condescending manner, then go into high-speed backpedal, saying "no, I didn't" when someone calls you on it. For my opinion of you not mattering, you certainly crafted a reply. And, by the way, you're right, Bill Haast probably doesn't need or want my defense of him; he'd probably just ignore you.
Bill
|
| |
|
RE:And another from me.......
|
Reply
|
|
by ALA_herp31 on June 17, 2005
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Phillip, you are one bright Young Man. I think you have put the point across better than anyone has yet. Good on you bud, keep it up, it takes a lot of Guts to stand up against this self centered, foolish, and egotistical people, that want to tare everything we have down.............Be safe ya’ll, happy herping Wally
|
| |
|
RE:And another from me.......
|
Reply
|
|
by Chance on June 17, 2005
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I haven't chimed in on this topic yet...though I'm honestly not sure why. I guess I can't really say I'm surprised to see Jim and Kristen's attack on private keepers, nor Terry Phillip's defense of what they did. Do I like it or agree with them? Hell no. This isn't the first time I've noticed that zoo personnel are always eager to jump on the new laws bandwagon in regards to private keeping of venomous herps. Afterall, they know their jobs are mostly safe. Heck, they get paid to do what some of us could only dream of, especially after the repercussions of something like what Jim has done. Is this to say that all private keepers are model citizens who need or deserve to keep the animals they have? Again, hell no! There are certainly plenty of keepers out there who shouldn't be in charge of hamsters, much less the highly dangerous snakes they keep. But to deny everyone that priveledge based on a few bad apples is just rediculous. We need rules, not total restrictions.
Though they would probably deny it, I'm betting that after the responce this issue has generated, including some very well-known folks in the venomous community coming out to personally condemn them for what they've done, I bet that they somewhat regret it now. Would they ever say so on this or any other forum? Of course not. But lots of these folks mean what they say when they say they will no longer support by means of selling to, buying from, or visiting these facilities. I'll add my obviously lesser known name to that now ever growing list. The way I see it, if they can try to keep up from keeping venomous snakes by publically supporting bans, then we can keep them from doing the same by cutting some of the funding to their facilities. Of course I'm not naive enough to think that we could single-handedly deal a death blow to their businesses, but I'm betting we could certainly hurt them.
-Chance
|
| |
|
RE:And another from me.......
|
Reply
|
|
by stopgetinpopped on June 18, 2005
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Bill,
Obviously, you are not too old for being star struck, because you are, you haven't answered the questions to his contributions have you. I'm willing to bet at most you have met him once and at the least you have read Cobras in His Gardens at least a dozen times.
My contributions hadn't been brought up at the time, Haast's had. Thats why.
Yes, Snakes on the venom line are fed off of forceps in nice sterile paper and water cages. Gee, just ask Jim H. As well as all the other major venom (non- 3rd world) venom operations worldwide.
What breeding strategies?
There is no back pedal, I stand by what I say on the internet, there are so many people like you that are so "tough and knowledgable" on the computer. I say on the computer what I would say in person and stand by it. I craft my replies just out of pure entertainment of your hysterical whining.
Ya know, everyone has to start somewhere but all this lecturing coming from a guy with no experience really is rather entertaining.
Am I a jerk? when needed and I can be very good at it.
So why Bill, do you come to everyones defense? Especially when there was no attack on Haast. All I did was state the obvious. Just because you have alot of bites doesn't gain my respect. Actually, I rather pity him.
I don't take shots at people, I call them on their stupidity. I may not be liked by everyone but hey...who cares.
Just as point of interest for those of you that have banned these places...the only cost of admission to any reptile person is a phone call or email...so please don't break the bank.
And Bill. One more thing, once you mature a little why don't you arm yourself before you come to a battle of wits! ( I know, I've used that one on you before...but it is so fitting for you!)
|
| |
|
RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
|
Reply
|
|
by agkistrodude on June 18, 2005
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Maybe Jims worried about his job. A ban would provide job security for himself and anyone else that HE wants in.He's lost whatever respect I had for him,and I won't visit his zoo again.
|
| |
|
RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
|
Reply
|
|
by bush_viper17 on June 18, 2005
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Lets stay on the topic at hand. I already see finger pointing and non productive arguments starting. I bet that before long, this topic will venture into a blame game. It will be people that freehandle etc. that have caused the ban. It will be everyones fault and then we will get caught up in arguing that we forget all about the real topic. Lets dont start a war on this topic, please.
This isnt about safe keeping, or more money for the zoo etc. Its about being lazy. Permits would be way to much of a hassle. With a ban, all you have to do is make the law and fine the people who dont obey. ITs also about authority. I think that a few people pissed Jim off and he got fed up and did what he wants to do. NOw he has lost all of his credibility. He will still have a few "followers" and "defenders" He will still always have his name "on the record" but he will never be respected by many people again. Thats the first downfall. If we stay on topic and not tear our community up from the inside out, we will win in the end. It will be hard, new laws will be passed, but if we dont lose the fight that we have in us, we will get the job done. But if this turns into a civil war against our members, we will piss the battle away. Write letters,make phone calls,email Jim and see if you can work anything out. Do something. Dont argue with eachother. Dont sit around and hope that it doesnt affect you. WHat have done so far?? Nothing. What can I do?? I can think of something. Our community isnt going anywhere. DOnt tell yourself that. You can get what you want if you work for it. I know, Ive seen it happen before. If you do have a problem with anyone of your fellow members on this site, email them. Please dont call names on the forums and get everyone else angry. Dont point fingers. Who is making the bans? None of us. So why are we fighting with each other. If you support Jim, thats no problem. Make your statements with proof that what he is doing is right. If you feel strongly that what he is doing will work to ours and those around us' advantage, clarify your statements. This isnt a one sided battle. There will be some that dont like your opinion. You will not like everyone elses opinion either. I think that he has turned his back on the community. Why do I say that? Because I know that he is a poster on this site. I know that he reads these forums because I have seen him on here many times, but this is a very hot subject and he hasnt been here once to defend himself? Whereas if he had a valid point and had proof that what he was doing is right, he(at least in my opinion) would be here ASAP with his arguments. ONE more thing before I go. It is common sense that a permitting system would work. Look at florida. It works well for them. Now look at the other states. The other states are always fighting and arguing about laws and alot of other things. Why not just take the time and make a permitting system. Set guidelines, tell us what we must have in order to obtain the permit. Make us go through classes, make us do a certain amount of hours,do something. Give us a permit and let everyone be happy. All a ban will do is make a never ending argument and piss everyone off. It will cause more paperwork for state and DNR because 90%(just a guessed percentage) will continue to keep their animals no matter how strickt the laws, whereas if there was a permitting system, those same people would easily abide by the rules. Most people pay good money for their animals,food,cages,vet,antivenom,etc. and they wouldnt think of throwing all of that money away just because of a new law. That would be like telling someone to get rid of their new car because they are no longer legal after they spent so much time and money on it. Bans are not the "American" way. If they make a permitting system, you should follow all of the rules, or if your state already has a permitting system, you would be crazy to not take advantage of your priviledge and break the rules. An all out ban is crazy,not neccasary,and immoral.
|
| |
|
RE:And another from me.......
|
Reply
|
|
by KingCobraFan on June 18, 2005
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Yeah, sure, Terry. You really put me in my place. Venom extractors might hand-feed their animals when the collection numbers in the few hundreds, but not when it's in the upper thousands, as Haast's once was.
And, by the way, since you still choose not to say anything regarding your "contributions" (probably nothing there), I'll do it for you:
Haast---1) pioneered the modern venom line.
2) one of the first to practice self-inoculation (whether you agree with the premise or not).
3) has helped save lives with his blood on
occasion.
You-----"Am I a jerk? when needed and I can be very
good at it".
I've said what I wanted to say. Take all the shots you want.
Bill
|
| |
|
RE:And another from me.......
|
Reply
|
|
by FLVenom911 on June 18, 2005
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
If I remember correctly, Bill Haast use to supply Florida with AV before MDFR A/V bank was formed. I dont ever recall hearing Bill gripe about using his A/V stock or pushing for bans in FL when people get bit. I never heard Bill complain of getting wake up calls in the middle of the night. Hell the man once flew to Iran in the 70's or 80's I believe it was to save some one related to the Shah of Iran who was bitten by a snake.
|
| |
|
RE: Thanks Jim Harrison....
|
Reply
|
|
Anonymous post on June 18, 2005
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
"You all seem to bow down to bill haast...what has he contributed to anything in the 50 some odd years he's been doing this? Husbandry? nothing he still force feeds all his animals. caging...nope. understanding of bites and the effects on humans....nope. Breeding strategies? nope.................Nothing but raw venom and showmanship and his raw venom is not very clean or organised. Rather similar to a circus act all about showman ship. Nothing wrong with that as long as everyone knows it. "
I am not attacking you on this, but you CLEARLY do not know Mr. Haast, nor have you been to his lab and become familiar with his work.
I am a personal friend of Bill and Nancy Haast, and am VERY familiar with his operation, so I will address the above issues one by one from my personal knowledge.
1) I (and most herpers) do NOT "BOW DOWN" to Mr. Haast. We simply give credit where credit is due. In fact, Mr Haast would not have someone over there who just wanted to bow down to him and lick his shoes etc. He is a very humble man.
2) What has he contributed in the past 50 years??? His work has helped to save the lives of many people. He was Wyeth's MAIN source of venom for the making of antivenin for many years. He developed a cure for Polio (even though FDA shut that down). He developed or assisted in the developement of several medical uses of snake venoms. He provided the venom for the University of Miami to work on a new pain medication made from fractions of Green Mamba venom that would be far more effective than morphine (yet not addictive). He assited in the developement of an anticoagulant medication and provided the Malayan Pit Viper venom for that project. He has several patents on inventions (one made the lyphilizer more affordable). He has been used as a consultant in MANY snake bites, not to mention how many times his ownblood was used to assist others bitten.
Now, I'm sure that his list of contributions dwarfs yours, but then we will never know just how valuable you have been to the world, because you don't want to enlighten us.
3)Mr Haast DOES NOT force feed ANY of his animals...He tube feeds them...There is a big difference (but I am sure you knew that). From your vast personal knowledge of his operation, you no doubt know that Bill works ALONE with all his snakes on the venom line. At times, he has had over 1,400 venomous snakes. Now, I'm sure your collection towers Bill's, but can you immagine throwing 1,400 rodents in cages every two weeks, then having to go back and pull out all the ones that did not get eaten? Does it not make more sence to INVENT a tube feeding mix that will work with all his animals, and tube feed while you already have the snake out for extraction? At the same time the cage is changed out. When he had over 800 coral snakes (at the time he was the SOLE provider of venom for Wyeth's Coral Snake antivenom production) he would have been too busy looking for little snakes to feed 800 coral snakes to get any venom production done.
4) Breeding??? Bill Haast has NEVER claimed to be a breeder, nor has he ever intentionally attempted any breeding. In fact, Bill does not even claim to be a Herpetologist in the first place. The snakes are a tool for his trade. Baby snakes do not put out much venom yeild thus would be useless to him for a few years.
5) "and his raw venom is not very clean or organised." This was my biggest clue that you had no idea of what you are talking about. With over a half million dollars of lab equipment, he is putting out dirty venom??? I guess the expensive lab was just for show. Have you ever purchased any of his venom??? So how is it unclean??
I could go on and on, but my point is well made. Look, you don't have to like Bill Haast (like you, Bill does not care what anyone thinks of him), but at least get your facts in order before using them as your basis for not liking him.
Peace!
|
| |
|
Email Subscription
You are not subscribed to this topic.
Subscribe!
My Subscriptions
Subscriptions Help
Check our help page for help using
, or send questions, comments, or suggestions to the
Manager.
|
