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RE: Why/how was he bitten?
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by atlvolkid on July 12, 2005
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I'm a lawyer, so I think that makes me a "professional" herpetologist (ha2). Anyways, I'm not sure that how or why someone gets envenomed would have any significant bearing on a medical malpractice suit. With that said, one of the first things they teach you in law school is, that in order to sue for negligence (malpractice being a type of negligence) you must have damages. Unless one's recovery is really hampered and less than total, (and it can be proven that the Dr. violated the standard of care causing such a result), your not going to recover any $.
Also, if I was bitten, I would direct my Dr. to the protocols and demand they be followed. You must be an active participant in your health care.
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RE: Why/how was he bitten?
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by sceniccityreptiles on July 12, 2005
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“one of the first things they teach you in law school is, that in order to sue for negligence (malpractice being a type of negligence) you must have damages.”
Very glad you posted on this, I would like your opinion. If you read my original post on the law suit, I said nothing would be done on this one, but if he would have died, his mother would have sued, and if he had lost his hand, he would have sued. I am by no means a sue happy liberal, but in a case like this were a Doctor makes a diagnose like that without even looking at him, would this have been grounds for a suit should there have been long term damage.
I think some of you are missing the point that upset me. If she would have come out and looked at him, I would have told her it was a minimal envenomation. The swelling has already arrested, he just needs antibiotics for the secondary infections and something for the pain. Sure, we can wait if there is more serious case going on. The thing is, she never even looked at him. He could have been swollen to the point blood flow was cut off to the fingers. If that had been the case, the ½ hour we waited to be seen by the attendant and the ½ hour we waited after that to be called back, would have meant the lose of his hand. That could have been any of you guys in this hobby. He followed the protocol, he had me go with him. I explained he was envenomatied, your protocol means absolutely nothing if your heath care professional are incompetent and this case the dr was incompetent.
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RE: Why/how was he bitten?
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by MattHarris on July 12, 2005
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I have a question, have you ever consulted with the ER here before to be sure that they are up to speed on proper envenomation protocols(Don't assume they are). In working with Al (Phobos) on the A/V bank, I consulted one of the more prominent reptile zoos in PA, and they brought up an important case and point(one that is a spurning impetus for the A/V bank). The had previously established protocols with a snakebite "specialist" at a major regional medical center, except that years later, when one of their keepers was bitten by a cobra, it turned out that the "specialist" who was familiar with their protocols, was no longer practicing at the medical facility. They had to deal with someone who was totally green, and would not listen to a word they said. This COULD have cost the keeper a limb(unlikely their life--as it was a mild red spitter bite and he was a pretty big guy) but still, the situation illustrates the point.
You can't assume ANY physician in this country is up to speed on snake bite protocol and its imperative to have established protocols and a good relationship with your personal physician. What to do for anaphylaxis--maybe---but not the direct treatment of envenomation.
BTW....I don't dispute the fact that the girl should have looked at his hand, but what irritates me is with the recent surge of bites, everyone is quick to blame others for their own carelessness. If I were bitten, I'd be more irritated at myself and embarrassed for being so careless, to the point that a) I'd feel pretty pathetic not taking responsibility for my own carelessness and b) THe last thing I want to do is fatten some lawyers pockets on a malpractice suit. Health care is expensive enough as it is, without contributing to the problem.
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Wish you could see medical care in Costa Rica.....
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by MattHarris on July 12, 2005
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...this would never happen. They'd have had him in a chair hooked up to an IV in a few minutes, and worried about his Passport, payment, etc. later. Its funny how a small country can have such a different philosophy on things, health care in particular.
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RE: ScenicCity . . . .
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by atlvolkid on July 12, 2005
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I agree with you and understand your anger. If he lost his hand or sufferred loss of use etc., he'd have a claim. If it happened to me and I was damaged, I would consider a suit for sure. I would have to hire a lawyer since I don't litigate! There are all types of legal hurdles to meet though (some states tougher than other) and the suit might not succeed.
We all engage in "negligent" conduct every day, but usually no one is hurt, so no valid claim arises. For example, I looked down to change my radio on my way home in the car tonight, but b/c I didn't wreck= no claim. Sounds like what the Dr. did. They are human too. I hope your friend's hand heals up and is good as new.
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RE: ScenicCity . . . .
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by Rabies on July 12, 2005
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Its so easy to critacize any body can do it! Even though the biting species does not have the reputation as a EDB or WDB the victim should of been properly examined. Anaphylaxis through venom exposure is a rare event in the private keeper and symptoms can be instantaneous to delayed for hours. With this perticular person the bite involved a digit which even with a small amount of venom can cause severe complications to that area. The main concern would be swelling followed by any necrosis, complications such as compartment syndrome can arise very quickly in digits so technicaly speaking the patient should of been assesed for CroFab( more so when digits are involved).Especially with CroFab being such a safe AV. From the fact the patient had swelling to the wrist and if there were any signs of progression then the administration of antivenom should be considered. The patient also should of had blood samples taken for laboratory testing.
Any way from the snipet of information given that's my 2 cents.
Regards
John
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RE: ScenicCity . . . .
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by Mustangrde1 on July 13, 2005
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Fault or not of the keeper aside. A hospital should have a set procedure for dealing with "NATIVE VENOMOUS SNAKE BITES" There really is no excuse on thier part for not having a proper protocal for these circumstances.
I can understand hospitals not knowing how to treat exotic species, but species they more than likely are going to see in their region they should have a protocal for. They have it for gun shots, stabbings, car accidents etc. A snake bite be it rare in compared to other emergency trauma is still one that is likly and thus one the staff should be prepared to handle.
Had this been Joe Blow out in the woods and bitten by a cotton, eastern, COPPER, timber or any other native venomous reptile The patient should have been promptly taken in to the ER and had AV 1st course started. No person especially a doctor should assume that a bite will not be fatal or not have the potential to cost a limb/digit.
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RE: ScenicCity . . . .
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by Rabies on July 13, 2005
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This statement sticks in my mind after reading it a few years ago: "Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the patient who has been bitten, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."
This is so true that I have it as my signature where ever possible.
John
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RE: ScenicCity . . . .
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by LarryDFishel on July 13, 2005
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"The patient should have been promptly taken in to the ER and had AV 1st course started."
Just for reference, this is not correct. For those hospitals that do have a reasonable protocol, the procedure is to take the patient for observation for some time (unless serious problems are immediately evident) before deciding whether to administer AV. Especially in the case of a copper bite, the AV is much more likely to kill you than the bite (especially before CroFab).
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RE: ScenicCity . . . .
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by shaggybill on July 13, 2005
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I am the complete anti-thesis of all the modern-day sue-happy idiots out there today, but this doctor took a huge medical risk in assuming that the bite was in fact from a copperhead. Chuck could have easily been a backwoods hillbilly who thought the hidden rattlesnake in the woodpile was actually a copperhead.
Lucky for him it wasnt...
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