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Copperhead questions
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by redbird on March 21, 2006
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Guys -
I have kept hots off & on for the past twenty years (mostly elapids...a few vipers, but all exotics). Anyway, I was at the Low-country expo and a beautiful orange broad-banded copper took my breath away. Truth be told, I have seen a lot of silver-gray or brown coppers that just never tickled my fancy. But I would really love to get a breeding group of orange/red coppers. Here are my questions:
1) Are there any ssp of coppers that are RELIABLY bright orange/red as adults (safe to purchase as neonates & trust that they will "turn out" - broad-banded? trans-pecos?)? Or are they so variable that purchasing full grown snakes is the only way to end up with what you are after?
2) Can anyone point me to a good source for a group of nice coppers to start a breeding group with - now or in the spring?
Thanks,
Mike
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RE: Copperhead questions
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by LongDucDong on March 21, 2006
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I remember awhile back that www.designeratrox.com had some nice coppers available, but I havent checked recently. You might want to give them a try and see if they have any or Im sure they can point you in the right direction of a breeder who has some nice specimens for you. Just an idea...
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RE: Copperhead questions
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by ALA_snake33 on March 21, 2006
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Mike, if you want to get advice from anyone on SHHS. I suggest you Fill Out at least some of your Profile, the parts I would recommend are (Age, DOB, and Experience with Venomous Snakes / Lizards). This will help you get more Info from Most of the Site Members. I don’t intend for this to sound like im telling you your Business by any means, but it’s a good way to get more Info. Good luck, I wish you the best with your Copperhead Endeavors, by the way I am a Agkistrodon Nut myself...........................Be Safe Ya’ll, Happy Herping : Wally
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RE: Copperhead questions
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by 23bms on March 22, 2006
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Try finding someone who breeds mokasen, the northern subspecies. Though variable, mokasen tends to run much darker than the southern subspecies. Often, the reds, browns, and oranges can be remarkably intense. I have seen absolutely stunning reds, oranges and burnt umbers on specimens in the field in northeast/north central PA, northwest NJ, and south east/central NY. If you can find someone with good breeding stock from one of those areas, you've hit a home run.
Incidentally, and for whomever else may be interested in the subject, collecting or possession of copperheads is illegal in NJ*. In PA, the Fish and Boat Commission has proposed rules that would establish a season and put possession limits on copperheads, but nothing, to my knowledge, has been formally promulgated yet. In NY, the copperhead is not considered threatened or endangered, however NY does not permit possession of venomous reptiles. Ergo, caveat captor. (Humor.) (Sorry.)
As I only attend PA shows, where native PA species are prohibited, I don't know whether breeders may have mokasen stock available elsewhere.
I hate taking individuals from the wild. If you find someone with good mokasen stock, please let me know. Thanks.
jrb
* In NJ, everything that is not specifically permitted by law (ie. almost EVERYTHING) is illegal. Some Britain (Churchill? Disraeli? Pitt? I can't remember whom...), perhaps envisioning the modern NJ (or perhaps the modern US?... Or the modern England?), once commented that (pardon the paraphrasing), "In Germany, everything is illegal. In France everything is legal. In England, it doesn't really matter what you do so long as you are discreet about it." Substitute NJ (or the modern England) for Germany and you get the picture. (This was obviously pre-war (I won’t say which) England. These days, in the land of the eviscerated spineless House of Lords and omnipresent government nannyism... How depressing...)
If anyone knows the source of that quote, please write me. I can’t track it down and it’s driving me nuts.
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RE: Copperhead questions
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by jared on March 29, 2006
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Ok, here goes. All coppers are born a greyish brown, all ssp. Of the animals I have produced (I have produced all of the 5 ssp) the transpecos tend to have fewer but larger more robust babies. The mexican locality pecos I had were almost blood red and silver banded, truely exceptional aggies the pecos. Now that being said I have also seen (though not common) certain localities in texas of broadband coppers that were screamin blaze orange, but to find those select exceptional individuals is not common. Now, my personal favorites, and the few I still keep are select locality mokasen. I have Kentucky individuals that exhibit beautiful oranges and robust dark outlines. Select mokasen can go from purply grey in areas of kentucky to pumpkin orange like select southern ohio animals. For this particular ssp i think the variability is more that of individual animals than entire ssp. I have seen many brown mokasen from the same areas, but occassionally you find a stunner. Also, I have seen some osages that make even the pinkest southerns look kinda brown, and pecos that looked dirtier than bbands. Very variable species, hope that helps a bit,
Jared Watts
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RE: Copperhead questions
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by tj on March 29, 2006
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They do seem to vary quite abit, I've seen some Northerns and Southersn that have bright cherry red instead of the normal copper head. What I like is the light phase Southern's that these yahoo's are selling as "hypo", or some garbage, for an obscene amount of money. Truly a great species, though.
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RE: Copperhead questions
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by jared on March 29, 2006
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Yes, I agreed I used to have a southern from orangeburg sc that was as white as a sheet of paper and had gorgeous butterfly bands only 2-3 scales wide in the center. I only see those really exceptional aggies in about 1 outta every 100 I see. Having worked with most of the venomous herps on the planet I can still say that the copperhead is still top of my list for venomous herps, I am a true mocassin fan I guess,
Jared Watts
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RE: Copperhead questions
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by redbird on March 29, 2006
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OK - here's a clarified question: What would you advise me to do if I wanted to establish a group of exceptional copperheads (probably trans-pecos or broad band)? Anyone you would recommend as a producer?
Also - I have worked with african bush vipers before (atheris squamiger). They are highly variable within each litter (like thayeri). Bottom line is that if you produce several litters, you are going to get a little of everything, and some will invariably be screamers. Is it like that from good aggie stock...or is it more like the line-bred young of other species, where parenting and selective breeding are the key. And again, if this is so - how does a collector from the SE get good stock from out west?
(sigh)
Mike
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RE: Copperhead questions
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by jared on March 30, 2006
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Ok, Yes I would say it is line bred. In particular, my pair of pecos would produce 4-5 babies every year and almost 90% of the offspring had 100% full connecting bands. Aggies are not like breeding atheris in that the litters of atheris seem to vary much more from the parents then the aggies. What you should do is attend hot shows in the east, and hand select your animals, one at a time. Try to pair unrelated animals from similar localities, it took some time to pair up my pecos but once I did it was golden. As far as aggie breeders, not many specialized in that anymore (most hehe) and it will be easier as I said to look for the animals at shows than find one person who has exceptional stock (though I believe there may be one or 2 out there). So, look for screamer parents (browns usually produce browns) and good localities. If you have any specific questions (agkistrodon is my focus species, and what I have built my research on) you could call me after 5 at 910 431 9242. I hope it helps,
Jared L Watts
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