|
11-15 of 15 messages
|
Previous
Page 2 of 2
|
|
RE: black rat snake bites
|
Reply
|
|
by Atrox788 on October 26, 2006
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
I could have worded it better. Venom is for all intesive purposes modified saliva. Silva is humans aid is breaking down food which is a simlar effect to some venomous snakes. Venomous snakes take saliva to a whole new level, i.e venom. Your right though that bacteria is the main culprit of any reaction considering how bacteria ridden our mouths are. however, the saliva acts the same as some venoms when ingesting food.
I have to re look what the text definition of venom is for it may have more of an imoblizing definition but it is for all intesive purposes its saliva all be it modified. The chemical make up is vitrualy the same, well, atleast in its use of proteins and ensymes not the exact same ones however.
A good example for a bacteria being potentialy classified as venom would be komodo dragons. They use the bacteria in their saliva to imoblize prey. Of cource we are talking bacteria which is MUCH more lethal by it design and is also not produced by the animals themselfs making it even more interesting as far as classification is concerned..
Regarding the ratsnakes, im not sure if Brian's research lead to the thinking that the saliva has properties which can imobolize or that there was primative venom i.e saliva injection system. Im going to dig it up now.
Regardless it would be safe to assume that any snake's salivia, with or without a known "Venom injection system" could be considered atleast potentialy harmfull all be it a small scale.
Many Elapids both inject highly toxic venom and constrict at the same time leading to even more questions about the evolution of venomous snakes.
Very interesting topic even if I am way off base in my understanding ^^ Going to see if I can find that paper and make sense of it.
Hopefully brian stumbles across this and gives us more insight ^^
|
| |
|
RE: black rat snake bites
|
Reply
|
|
by Atrox788 on October 26, 2006
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Bellow is a copied and pasted part of BGF's studies regarding colubrid venom. It would appear from this that I was stuck in the "old school" way of thinking. very interesting stuff! Cheers to Brian!!
"The venoms of these snakes are in some cases just as complex as elapids and vipers. The venoms are exactly that, true venoms. They are not 'toxic saliva'. The gland producing the venoms was formerly referred to as the 'Duvernoy's gland'. However, this is an artificial term that is evolutionarily misleading, it is in fact the same venom gland as the one found in cobras and rattlesnakes. This is because venom evolved once, at the very base of the Colubroidea (Advanced snakes) evolutionarily tree, long before any of the 'colubrids' evolved. Thus, these snakes have the same gland and produce some of the same toxins. We even pulled out the classic cobratoxin (a 3FTx (three-finger toxin)) from a bloody ratsnake!! The toxin was homologous to and just as potent as a comparative cobra toxin. Same toxins = same gland."
I guess we are looking for in this pirticular disscusion is if the above mentioned applies to the black ratsnake of North America. I know which paper you are reffering to but im having alittle trouble finding it.
On the same note most of Brian's finding are revolved around Asian ratsnakes which are distinct from US ratsnakes but like you I do remeber his specificly making mention of our ratsnakes in that paper.
Again, interesting stuff ^^
|
| |
|
RE: black rat snake bites
|
Reply
|
|
by snakeguy101 on October 26, 2006
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
|
Wether it's bactria or venom dors not matter, tell your frind to wash his hands about once every 2 hours when possible and the thing will disappear, nothing to worry about.
|
| |
|
RE: black rat snake bites
|
Reply
|
|
by herp-master on October 27, 2006
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
ok guys, thanks, this will make him feel better. He was over reacting about this and almost made himself pass out. I told him not to worry, but, he didnt care. I'll make him take a look at this.
Thanks a bunch.
Andy (herp-master)
|
| |
|
RE: black rat snake bites
|
Reply
|
|
by BGF on October 30, 2006
|
Mail this to a friend!
|
Venom is not modified saliva. This is one of the greatests myths about the evolution of venom. The glands are not modified existing salivary glands but rather newly derived structures. Similarly, the toxins themselves are not modified salivary proteins but rather mutated forms of proteins from all over the body. For example, the devastating effects on the blood chemistry produced by many Aussie elapids is due to the recruitment into the venom of the blood coagulating Factor X. The venom of the species in the taipan/brown snake clade have gone one better, by also bringing in Factor V. Thus producing the perfect biological weapon through the use of body proteins as building blocks.
The effects produced by human bites are a red-herring, this is a case of bacterial infection. This is in contrast to the komodo dragon, where secondary bacterial infections (which take a couple days to properly bloom) have been distracting from the cause of the early emerging symptoms (dizzyness, prolonged bleeding, muscle pain) which is due to proper venom produced by very large glands on the lower jaw (the same venom glands and toxins as in the gila monster). The large varanids can produce quite appreciable amounts of venom. We have some pretty mindblowing followup results that we are currently writing up.
As for the presense/absense of venom in N. American ratsnakes. We are working on that right now. It is still there but in very very small amounts. The glands in the N. American ratsnakes are almost completely gone but still there as vestigial strutures. Not enough to cause symptoms. I'd say in this case, it was likely due to infection to your friend.
Here is the link to my publications on this area if you want to read in more depth. This includes the Nature paper on venom in varanids.
http://www.venomdoc.com/publications.html
Cheers
B
|
| |
|
Email Subscription
You are not subscribed to this topic.
Subscribe!
My Subscriptions
Subscriptions Help
Check our help page for help using
, or send questions, comments, or suggestions to the
Manager.
|
