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How to end this hobby
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by Phobos on November 6, 2006
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Some dealers will do anything to make a buck, including selling snakes to individuals that have no experience with any exotic venomous snakes and just a few months experience with Rattlesnakes & Copperheads. Had the dealer (Yes, I know who it is but they deny it) took a few minute to talk to this kid he would have realized that he was not a good candidate for any Hot snake. In this case this 20yr old male smuggles home an Banded Egyptian Cobra purchased at the Hamburg show (legally) and told his parents it was a "Corn Snake". He was keeping it in a 30 Gal aquarium with a screened top in his room. The house is shared with his parents and 7 yr old brother. This was a "Train Wreck" in progress, that was avoided by the parents having the snake removed from the house.
I have to laugh at several recent posts regarding the youngsters complaining that they don't like our atittude about certain topics, geee I wonder why.
Al
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RE: How to end this hobby
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by keyz on November 6, 2006
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Al you got one hell of a point there mate, Its good that these topics arose as it really shows exactly why we are concerned about our hobby. I just hope visitors to the site can understand what it is all about and thats obvious to all who come here as it states what the site does when u search for it on the web. Anyway its a shame that someone like that could seriously damage the hobby and or get someone in there family killed. its a shame but will always happen I jsu dont understand why some one would amit to keepin venomous snakes and that they are nieve about the snakes they keep. keyz.
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RE: How to end this hobby
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by earthguy on November 6, 2006
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Al,
I totally agree. I was at the Columbia show this weekend. For the most part I was very impressed. I did, unfortunately, see some things that made me a bit nervous for our hobby. If we don't learn to self regulate (and fast) by creating our own laws, others less knowledgeable about our way of life will do it for us. Andrew (AKA MoccasinMan) is sort of leading the way for us (by the way Andrew, it was a pleasure to meet you in person).
SouthernCat,
Wonderful show this weekend. I do have a couple of suggestion/observations, though. Please don’t take these as “holier than thou” criticisms. I am really just trying to help.
1. What is the purpose of having a “hot” section if some vendors are selling venomous outside of the hot section? There were several Crotalus and Agkistrodon for sale close to the main entrance.
2. Some of the hots were clearly marked with red tape. I liked that a lot, but it was not universal. I saw some very dangerous snakes who weren’t marked.
3. Some of the tables had netting over their displays. While this isn’t exactly a major deterrent, it would keep a few more prying hands off of the displays. There were many half-pints present (my daughter included), not all of whom were as well behaved or closely watched as mine. It disturbed me a little to have vipers and elapids so close to inquisitive hands, separated by only a very thin plastic tub.
4. There were a few big boids roaming relatively free – not held and not in cages.
I really would like to commend you all on an excellent show. Most of the vendors that I talked to were very knowledgeable, and the presentations were excellent (my daughter really loved Roark Ferguson’s show). Keep up the good work, and lets make it better.
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RE: How to end this hobby
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by Viperlady on November 6, 2006
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Hello, everybody
I don't consider myself an expert since I've only been keeping hot herps for about 6 years, but I did have previous experience with snakes, and some very bad tempered ones. Since I've been involved in this field, many unexperienced hobbyists and specially young ones have been bitten by their venomous and sent to emergency, but in fact what worries me the most is that most of them keep the animals in the worst of conditions and end up killing them. Most of them won't listen to what experienced keepers have to say, and of course specially if such a keeper lives in Mexico and is a girl, like me. Macho, macho men...lol
Another concern over here is legislation. You wouldn't believe how terrible (or maybe I should say inexistent) legislation on these matters is. Yesterday I was talking to my major reptile dealer and he was telling me how hard it's been for him to work things out legally. He's in favor of captive breeding and he's been struggling to get a permit for over a year to bring up a herp breeding facility. Well, it seems to be impossible and the funniest, most ironic thing about this whole story, he has to import mexican species either from the US or Germany, because noone is breeding them here, then here comes the bad part. Those young unexperienced herpers who do not have the economic status to buy legally imported specimens, go into the wild and catch them diminishing the population and unintentionally killing at least 50% of what is caught due to errors in captive care. They simply won't understand that this is not a hobby like collecting Star Wars cards or building plane models. It's a life at stake, well two lives at stake... the animal's and theirs. I've always tried to give the best of advice to these people, but as you say, most of them won't listen and tend to belive we are just a bunch of stuck-up show-offs trying to compete or defend our reputable position as keepers, and there is always that kind of feeling in the air like they're thinking "I'm better than you, I'm better than you... I don't need your advice, leave me alone, I'm King of the Reptile World". I bet most of us have been through this already. I don't know if it is because I see things in a different way due to being a woman, but my first experiences handling venomous species were at an experienced keeper's place and I started with the small, fairly calm specimens he kept, and the easiest ones in terms of care. That is always my advice to young people: "Fella, you are not a pioneer in this field, so please listen to what the experienced keeper has to say."
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RE: How to end this hobby
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by vanerka on November 6, 2006
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I agree, but there is no way of stopping these sellers from dealing to people understanding that they have little or no experience unless they police themselves. There is also little or no way of preventing these inexperienced and determinded individuals from purchasing these animals. There will always be someone willing to make a deal as long as it is in their favor. Fortunatly no one was injured from the delinquents decision. People like this are the reason that bans and other similar laws are put into effect. Hopefully this kind of mistake wont happen again, however, it is inevitable unless somthing is done to prevent it. I also support a few of the comments that Joshua had brought up about making it easier to distinguish differnt species,and about keeping venomous in the hots section. These would both are good ideas and should be inacted at these shows. I have never personally been to a venomous show so I wouldnt know but from what I hear, it is relativly enjoyable and hopefully it will stay that way.
Thanks Eric
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RE: How to end this hobby
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by Rob_Carmichael on November 6, 2006
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Personally, it blows me away that it is even legal to sell venomous snakes/herps at shows like Hamburg and others all over the U.S. These "impulse buy shows" are pretty scary because the breeders are there for one thing and that is to make a quick buck. With competition being so fierce, most will forego common sense and any form of ethics in order to not lose a potential customer. Here in Illinois we had a kid purchase a decent sized gaboon viper from the Hamburg Show w/NO ID or driver's license and brought it back to Chicago where he kept it in a glass tank and screen lid....in a one bedroom apartment with five small children! While I will always defend our rights to own venomous herps, I will not defend the ineptitude and process that we follow to sell "merchandise". There has to be a better way to monitor how people acquire these animals. I have many ideas but most will be logistically and economically difficult for those agencies who would have to supervise it.
Frightening stuff.
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
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Sorry, but I disagree
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by SwampY on November 6, 2006
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xposted from kingsnake -- my reply
Some dealers will do anything to make a buck,
>true
including selling snakes to individuals that have no experience with any exotic venomous snakes and just a few months experience with Rattlesnakes & Copperheads.
>Someone already keeps at least one hot and the dealer shouldn't sell to them?
Had the dealer (Yes, I know who it is but they deny it)
> What's to deny? selling a snake at a show to someone who is 20 years old in a state where it's legal?
took a few minute to talk to this kid he would have realized that he was not a good candidate for any Hot snake. In this case this 20yr old male smuggles home
> smuggles? unless he crossed into a state where it was illegal that isn't smuggling. It's purchasing.
an Banded Egyptian Cobra purchased at the Hamburg show (legally) and told his parents it was a "Corn Snake".
> Yes, this was wrong. I'll get back to this in a minute.
He was keeping it in a 30 Gal aquarium with a screened top in his room.
> I have a pair of pigmys, and three baby cottons in tanks with screened lids at this very moment.
The house is shared with his parents and 7 yr old brother.
> So people with kids shouldn't keep hots?
This was a "Train Wreck" in progress, that was avoided by the parents having the snake removed from the house.
> The train wreck you speak of is NOT the dealers fault, it's the person who lied about what species he had.
The ONLY thing wrong with this scenario is that a dangerous situation is created because the people living in the house with him that didn't know the animal was dangerous. That is a Bad thing, but do not fault the dealer for this. Do not fault the system for this. Do not fault anyone but the person who lied. Once you purchase an animal (or anything, gun, knife, or microwave oven) you are responsible for what you do with it.
The show was not bad.
The snake was not bad.
The dealer was not bad.
The purchase was not bad.
The caging was not bad.
The house it was kept in was not bad.
The LIE WAS BAD
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RE: How to end this hobby
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by Buzztail1 on November 6, 2006
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Al and Chad,
I agree with most of what both of you said and not all of what either of you said.
I absolutely abhor the fact that throughout every facet of american life, we have gotten away from holding individuals accountable for their own actions (and lies). This whole situation was created by someone who lied. He could have just as easily lied to the vendor. Clearly he had no qualms about lying to his parents.
While screen-topped aquariums are certainly useable for many snake keeping instances (like living alone in a secure environment), they are certainly not the best situation with a misidentified snake in a dwelling with minor children who have access (ability to get to) the cage in which they have been led to believe is a harmless reptile. I use screen-topped (albeit lockable) aquariums, too. But not in my bedroom and certainly not where children can walk up to them.
The bottom line is that this kid (20 years old living at home with mom and dad and lying to them about what he did constitutes kid to me) lied and placed his family in danger. That is bad. The age issue is actually pretty flexible because diiferent states enforce different limits for different things. Georgia requires applicants to be 18.
The lie is bad. The liar is responsible. Hold the individual accountable - not the community. Sadly, in the real world, that is not what is happening today. Otherwise the inept individual who spilled hot coffee in their lap would be responsible - not the company who made and sold it to them. There is your legal precident! The guy who bought and lied about the snake is not responsible. The guy who sold it to him must be. What a world we live in.
Karl H. Betz
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RE: How to end this hobby
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by Phobos on November 7, 2006
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I wrote this on another forum but thought I'd add it here too:
Hi Chad:
Thanks for your reply.
I do see your points but the dealer is the first line of defense insuring that the prospective keeper is qualified. Yes, it was a legal transaction. Was the kid qualified? Holy cow no! If a few minutes were taken to chat with him it would have been very evident he had not clue about taking care of any snake, no less a venomous one.
On many Herp sites like SHHS, there are a few 15 yr olds who I consider qualified to keep this snake, Phillip on for instance, you know why? Not because they have a vast amount of Elapid experience but they are STUDENTS of Herpetology, they're BOOK SMART, that compensates somewhat for their lack of hands on experience. The kid in question has NO real knowledge of snakes, venomous or not. I figured this out after 10 minutes with him at my facility. Why did'nt the dealer figure this out and be a responsable ADULT and not sell him the animals. Other dealers do it, why not this guy? This is not the first time he's shown a disregard for others. I witnessed him trying to sell some guy two snakes off his table, a EA Green Mamba & A Temple Phase Waglers. The guy asked, "What was the difference in the consequences from a bite by each." I stepped in and told him NOT to sell anything to the guy if he did not know that basic difference.
I have the snake at my facility till I can get it to a zoo who will buy it for the $250 the kid paid for it. I am planning to donate the $250.00 to the local ASPCA in his name if his parents agree and not return it to him, just to buy another snake at next months Hamburg show. He needs to pay a price for this situation, so I won't reward him for being stupid and putting his family at risk by buying it in the first place, nor will I reward him for lying to his parents.
If we don't self-regulate and take a stand on stupidity whether it's a 20 yr old who lies about their qualifications or a 35 yr old dealer who doesn't care who ends up with the Hot snake and what happens to them or the people they live with, this hobby WILL be regulated by the government, just like the several that Hot keeping is now banned. Which State will be next?
Al
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RE: How to end this hobby
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by tj on November 8, 2006
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"Which State will be next?"
I think we know the answer to that, Al.
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