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RE: Sudden interest in care sheets
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by Cro on November 9, 2006
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Adam, you were not wrong in bringing up the topic of care sheets. It would be good to have a bunch of them available on the site.
THE PROBLEM COMES WITH HOW PEOPLE USE THEM.
If you use a care sheet as a STARTING POINT to get some general information on a certain snake you are considering keeping, and then start the serious research by reading all you can on the internet, and asking on the forum here, and reading every book you can get your hands on, and THEN aquiring the new snake, if you still feel that you can care for and own it safely, you are using care sheets the right way. This is what Greg and Rob have just suggested above.
However, in this speeded-up world, folks are always in a hurry. The want to abbreviate things and not take the time to learn. If someone aquires a new snake, and thinks they know how to keep it because they have a care sheet, then they are making a mistake! They could wind up with a very dangerous snake that is beyond their keeping ability, and they could wind up killing a snake because they did not provide it correct housing and care.
If you think of a care sheet as a STARTING POINT FOR RESEARCH BEFORE YOU OBTAIN A NEW ANIMAL, then you are heading in the right direction.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Sudden interest in care sheets
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by rabbitsmcgates on November 9, 2006
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I would assume a Care Sheet would tell you how dangerous the snake is by comparing it to another snake or something else. The Sheet would give so much information that you couldn't help but want to learn more about the snake. And it would be derived directly from the members here rather than something found on an internet page so you know the info is accurate. And it would be heavy on what makes this snake different from the other snakes in your collection. That way the Care Sheet is valuable.
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RE: Sudden interest in care sheets
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by Atrox788 on November 10, 2006
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A caresheet is just an excuse to short cut the research you should be doing. As was said, Husbandry shouldnt be an issue. To keep these animals you should have excellent husbandry skills as is since this is the leet pilar of reptile keeping (or it should be).
Seriously, why do you need a caresheet? The only thing I can think which would be viable is breeding information. That would be worthy of a sheet. Egg temps, gestation, stimulateing breeding activity, things of this nature. Things that do require knowedage from an experinced person.
Wanting a caresheet is forgoeing the research prosess. Forgoing the research prosess is un excused from my point of veiw. You want somthing without having taken any steps to find out things on your own. You want to be lazy.
Any serious herper is always researching anyway. I remeber back when Susan Hunter had an Aspidelaps caresheet. I read it over and over and then researched some more. I found out that the info she had listed, alot, not all was erronious. I then steped up my research and drew informnation from many sources, taking the good, disgarding the bad and then useing my own feeble brain to come up with the proper set ups, temps and breeding situations for me. Low and behold I also had sucsess and bred A.l.lubricus. If I went by her caresheet alone I would have never produced them for her sheet left out many important considerations.
There is nothing you get in a caresheet that you couldnt get from reading books, papers and talking to people with experince and there are many, many things you will miss. To rely on a caresheet is rely on somone elses inturpretation on the exsisting information. Do you guys enjoy blindly following somones writeing withoiut researching to see if A) its true in the first place and B) if it inculdes everything you would need to know?
Even when reffering to handleing, simply ask a question on this forum. Specific questions will get a better reply then "I want a caresheet". Its simply easier and less time consumeing for one of us to comes here and answer and specific question instead of a broad subject that would require alot of thinking and writeing. Then you can get many points of veiw instead of just one to take as gosple.
This hobby shouldnt be for the lazy. The info is there if you look. Better info then any one person could ever tell you.
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RE: Sudden interest in care sheets
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by cottonmouth on November 10, 2006
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Atrox788
That is ridiculas! It is always good to have something to refer back to when keeping any reptiles in captivity! Some of the most knowlegable herpers and keepers in the world refer back to care sheets for ideas and substrate info,ect. What we need to do is get over our selves and not take everything so seriously.
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RE: Sudden interest in care sheets
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by hoyta on November 10, 2006
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agreed, cototnmouth..
its a part of research, atrox... i think it would be a good starting point for people in their research. i do agree that we do alot of research as keepers in the first place,though.
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RE: Sudden interest in care sheets
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by 91C2 on November 10, 2006
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A care sheet should be designed as a quick refresher reference and not in place of detailed research. It can be used as a supplement or as a guide to a particular animal, not species.
For beginners in the hobby, it can be a single sheet kept at the pet or enclosure for quick reference.
In all my sales, I make a care sheet and sent it with the animal. I list the basics, which should already be known, and any information about that snake's likes/dislikes and habits. I also include feeding habits.
Absolutely nothing can replace research, but care sheets can be a valuable tool, even include the name, address and phone for important contact information should a person be bitten by a venomous reptile and primary medical care until proffessional help is sought.
None of us here were born with full knowledge {though some would like to think so}. If you don't feel you need a care sheet, then don't use it, but for those that want it, why refuse to inform? Knowledge is power, knowledge make this a safer hobby; ahobby we all want to keep. Don't let ignorance be the death of this hobby.
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Care Sheets vs Bite Protocol Sheets
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by Buzztail1 on November 10, 2006
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Care must be taken not to mistake care sheets for bite protocol sheets.
A care sheet should describe the care of the animal. Some may even have information about the anitvenom that is used to treat a bite from the animal and include the manufacturer's phone number in order to facilitate getting your own supply of the antivenom.
However, a bite protocol sheet will have medical treatment information, antivenom necessary, any allergy information about you, location of antivenom, and emergency contact numbers (like Venom 1 or your personal doctor) to facilitate quick treatment.
Mixing your bite protocols information into your care sheet could result in your doctor needing to read through feeding and breeding information to get to pertinent treatment data in a situation where time = tissue.
Everyone keeping any venomous animal should have a pertinent bite protocol sheet handy in case of an accident.
If you find a care sheet useful that is fine too.
Just for your safety, don't mix the two up.
Karl H. Betz
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RE: Care Sheets vs Bite Protocol Sheets
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by ALA_snake33 on November 10, 2006
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I was debating to myself, if I should way in on this or not. Well, here we go.
In my personal opinion, a Care Sheet, offers Keepers a way to apply new technics, in the Care and Housing of their Charges. Now, I see on here that a lot of you think it to be Cheating. Well, take this into consideration. We all have to learn somewhere, do we not? Please, don’t get me wrong here, I am by not means saying that you should just read a Care Sheet and know First Hand how to Care for a Venomous Snake. What I am saying here is, that if you are already somewhat experienced in the Art of Keeping Venomous Snakes, Care Sheets can and will offer you a good reference for New Husbandry Technics and Good Care Info in general.
Personally, I have used Care Sheets a lot and see the legitimacies of their use.
Be Safe Ya’ll, Happy Herping : Wally
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RE: Sudden interest in care sheets
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by Atrox788 on November 13, 2006
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I agree, a source to go back to is good. However, many (the op being numeruo uno)want a sheet to hold there hand through what to do all the way down to how often to change the water. If you require such basic info then you have no buisness at all with the animal.
Details for breeding stimulation, egg temps, medicle procedures etc, yes, a care sheet sorta speak in invaluble. Size of an enclouser, substrate, what kind of bark to use etc, no, you should know it.
Why do you need a care sheet to refference back to about the behavior of the animal? Most times said sheet is written by somone with one or 2 specimens and everything they say can be picked up in a book or by asking people on the forums. Do you realy need a caresheet to refference back about lets say naja melenoluca? You read they are very eratiic, willing to bite and agile. Wow! If you cant remeber that then um, yea.
The only thing you should need to keep around for refference is bite protocalls, temps and emergency information. None of which I would call a caresheet. A caresheet is somthing the Pet Store gives when you purchase a cornsanke, not a venomous snake. Bite protocals need to be made specific for you and your location. A generalized sheet is good for somone of the basic info but you need to make your own not use somones that came from India.
The best source of information on a reptile is natural history. Knowing where the animal came from, what the temps are like, when is the rainy season, when are the animals most active etc. All of that info can be found in books. Its written by profesionals who have spent time in the field researching these animals putting together an extreamly detailed picture of the animal's life. Wanting a caresheet is wanting somone to copy that information, dumb it down and put it together with a nice little bow for you to easily acsess. You want somone else to do the work for you.
I know I sound harsh but this is not a kiddy game. This is a very serious hobby with very dire concquences and you have to mature and have half a brain to be in it properly. Research is a sign of maturity. Many here seem to want to by pass that and I quite frankly I find that childish. Im sorry but I do.
In closeing Im sorry if I offended anyone. I will keep my mouth shut from here on out and only reply to specific animal related questions.
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RE: Sudden interest in care sheets
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by Buzztail1 on November 14, 2006
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The thing about care sheets is that they are only as good as the information that was known by the author at the time they created the care sheet.
There are good care sheets and bad care sheets.
For instance, probably the best care data for mambas used to be on the web, created by Allen Hunter. I do not believe these are available anymore but they might be, somewhere.
Since then, lots of people have kept mambas and written care sheets of their own. Some examples can be found at Richard Mastenbroek's Elapid Pages (http://www.kingsnake.com/elapids/) where he has care sheets for all of the subspecies of mambas and several cobras which he claims to have built from his own experiences with each one of these animals.
Care sheets for just about anything can be found just by googling them. I believe that searching for care sheets and information about indivual animals is not a bad way to start researching an animal BEFORE you get it. Looking for them after you get the animal is indicative of poor planning and a lack of knowledge of just how deeply and dangerously you have gotten. Some animals are very difficult to get rid of once you have them.
Research what you want to get before you get it.
Ask questions before you get your animal.
Learn everything that you can before you get your animal.
Make sure that the animal you want is within your keeping abilities before you get it.
There are some animals with which you can survive skipping these steps and will tolerate a learn as you go approach. They are few and far between and DO NOT INCLUDE ANY ELAPIDS (cobras, mambas, death adders, etc)! The large vipers are just as bad. Too many people look at the seemingly lethargic Gaboon Vipers, Rhinocerous Vipers, Puff Adders, etc and think "Wow! That's pretty! And it just sits there. I could take care of that." without ever realizing just how deadly they are or what is involved in their care.
Be careful.
Karl
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