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Hypoxia and Lactic Acid Build Up in Feeder Mice ?
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by Cro on June 21, 2007
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The folks who supply frozen mice for herpers often use C02 to displace oxygen and murder the mice. This is supposedly humane.
When oxygen is removed, the body produces excess Lactic Acid in the cells before death of the animal.
Thus, the pH of the animal is rapidly changed to be more ascedic. Also, the mouse probably produces stress phermones as it dies, that might be detectable by a snake.
It has been my observation that Pygmy Rattlesnakes seem to be Highly Sensitive to something in frozen / thawed hopper size mice, that causes the Pygmy Rattlesnakes to not want to eat these mice.
I have tried frozen hoppers from 4 of the major suppliers, and have had the same thing happen no matter which supplier the mice come from, so it is probably not just bad handling from one supplier causing the problem, although I have heard resent rumors that some of the major suppliers do use the same source for their mice ? !
These same snakes will readily eat freshly killed or live hopper mice. But they turn up their noses at frozen hopper mice most of the time, no matter how the mice are thawed or heated or presented.
Now, some snakes like Cottonmouths will readily eat these frozen / thawed mice, but we all know that Cottonmouths are not picky feeders.
I am able to detect a smell from frozen hopper mice that I do not smell from live mice. I wonder if others have noticed the same thing ?
So, my question is this:
Has anyone else observed a reluctance for snakes (especially Pygmy Rattlesnakes) to feed on frozen / thawed hopper mice that have been killed by C02 ? (most are) I am not concerned about reluctance to feed on adult mice, because for some reason most snakes do feed on them.
Your observations will be greatly appreciated.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Hypoxia and Lactic Acid Build Up in Feeder Mic
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by LarryDFishel on June 21, 2007
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>When oxygen is removed, the body produces excess Lactic Acid in the cells before death of the animal.
Have you ever seen mice killed with CO2? I've done it myself. It takes literally 5 seconds. I'm not really familiar with the chemistry involded, but I seriously doubt any significant amount of lactic acid builds up in that time.
>Also, the mouse probably produces stress phermones as it dies, that might be detectable by a snake.
I think I can safely say that a mouse bitten by a snake will have no shortage of stress hormones in it's body by the time it dies. This doesn't seem to deter wild snakes from eating them.
>It has been my observation that Pygmy Rattlesnakes seem to be Highly Sensitive to something in frozen / thawed hopper size mice, that causes the Pygmy Rattlesnakes to not want to eat these mice.
Of all the issues I've had with pigmies, this is not one of them.
I think it's your imagination... Or you've just randomly ended up with some picky pigmies.
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RE: Hypoxia and Lactic Acid Build Up in Feeder Mic
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by agkistrodude on June 21, 2007
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Hey John, I've got all of my snakes eating frozen/thawed mice/hoppers/rats. My pygmys don't seem to have a problem with them. Marty
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RE: Hypoxia and Lactic Acid Build Up in Feeder Mic
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by LarryDFishel on June 21, 2007
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Almost forgot to mention one thing that is relevant here and that a lot of people miss, leading them to refer to gassing rodents as things like "murder".
Rodents killed in a CO2 chamber do NOT die of hypoxia. They die of CO2 poisoning which happens MUCH faster in pure CO2 than hypoxia ever could. They are NOT suffocating, and any way you cut it, it is far faster and less painful than dying of snake bite. It may or may not be faster than cervical dislocation. Probably faster unless the brain is physically destroyed during cervical dislocation (it may be, I don't know).
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RE: Hypoxia and Lactic Acid Build Up in Feeder Mic
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by Cro on June 21, 2007
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Ok, a good start. Lets see what others have to say.
I wonder how many folks are dealing with Carolina Pygmy Rattlesnakes ?
I still think there is something to this.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Hypoxia and Lactic Acid Build Up in Feeder Mic
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by Atrox788 on June 22, 2007
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I have kept a pair of Dusky pygmies in the past and hadno issues either. I use frozen thawed exclusivly and agree with everyone else. I have also had several friends that kept Red pigs and their experinces echo mine.
I think the issue is more of the body heat and movement then anything else. Im not sure how you are feeding them F/T but im my experince it takes alot more then simply droping it in, atleast for picky specimens. Do you heat up the mice prior to feeding or just keep them at room temp? Running hot water over a prey item has given me great results with picky Crotalids combind with alittle movment mimicing and the occasional slap across the face with the prey item LOL
Are these animals CB or WC? Are they adults or juviniles? Do you tease feed them? (tail tapping etc). Though pigs arent generaly known for their cadual lureing ability, or atleast I havent heard much about it, they do have a brigtly colored tip tail as babies and perhaps a little tail tapping will help you out, if you havent already.
Even with all of the above mentioned strategies some specimens will retain a pickiness and even refuse dead 100 percent of the time. In that case you just have to give them live.
As for the whole CO2 thing, I really cant comment as I have never done it, seen it done nor have a grasp on chemistry enough to know what you are talking about LOL However, I do agree with Greg in that it is by no means more painfull then taking a full on bite from a snake. The only time I have ever seen a snake that I thought did mice in humainly was a juvi canebrake I had some years back. It would almost instant kill mice. Aside from that, every fatal envenomation I have watched has been an extreamly painfull event for the mouse, by no means compared to the way Humans generaly dispatch the rodents.
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RE: Hypoxia and Lactic Acid Build Up in Feeder Mic
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by Cro on June 22, 2007
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Marty and Larry, I certanly did not imagine throwing away hundreds of uneaten hopper mice. I wonder what types of Pygmys you are both keeping ? My Dusky Pygmys will usually eat the frozen / thawed mice, however, my Carolina Pygmys are the picky ones that I am talking about. Since they are from many different locals, I do not believe that they as a group would all act the same way, but they do. They want nothing to do with frozen / thawed hopper mice.
Could a short exposure to C02 cause taste / smell changes in mice? Could all four of the large mouse supply companys be producing somehow tainted mice? I wonder how long the mice are allowed to set out after they are gassed, and how rapidly they are frozen also.
You can tell that the mice are packed tightly while they are still warm into plastic bags. Perhaps this allows some bacterial contamanination to happen before they fully frozen ?
What have those of you who have kept Carolina Pygmys observed?
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Hypoxia and Lactic Acid Build Up in Feeder Mic
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by Cro on June 22, 2007
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Jeremy, yep, I have tried dozens of different feeding techniques with these picky snakes, LOL. Some are wild caught, some are captive born and bred.
Perhaps I have gotten tainted hopper mice four times in a row from 4 different mice suppliers? Not very likely though.
Larry, I am surprised that you were able to kill mice in 5 seconds using C02, as I am finding this on the internet concerning C02 poisoning:
"In severe hypercapnia (generally PaCO2 greater than 10 kPa or 75 mmHg), symptomatology progresses to disorientation, panic, hyperventilation, convulsions, unconsciousness, and eventually death."
That is a lot to happen in 5 seconds ?
Also, in a site titled "Guidelines for Performing Euthanasia via C02" at:
http://www.med.nyu.edu/dlar/policies/guidelines.html
they recommended 5 Minutes of C02 exposure to kill mice.
Also, they make this statement:
Neonates: Since the time period for euthanasia is substantially prolonged in neonatal rodents (rodents 13-16 days) inherent resistance to hypoxia, CO2 narcosis must be followed by decapitation after the animals lose consciousness.
This would make me think even more that killing hopper size mice with C02 COULD allow build up of C02 in the blood supply ? I found this:
"If oxygen delivery to cells is insufficient for the demand (hypoxia), hydrogen will be shifted to pyruvic acid converting it to lactic acid."
So, if Neonate mice (hoppers) are indeed resistant to C02 euthanasia, then they MIGHT build up lactic acid, and that MIGHT cause a different smell in them that some snakes MIGHT be particularry sensitive to ?
Wish there was some way to test for lactic acid levels in mice, and if carbon dioxide acidosis could cause differences in the scent of an feeder mouse.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Hypoxia and Lactic Acid Build Up in Feeder Mic
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by LarryDFishel on June 22, 2007
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>they recommended 5 Minutes of C02 exposure to kill mice.
That's because they also recommend only adding 20% CO2/minute AND leaving the gas going for 1 minute after apparent death.
These are instructions for killing mice without causing any "nasal irritation" or the least bit of "excitement/distress". They're also probably VERY conservative to make really, really sure they never have one wake up and upset some poor lab assistant.
Call me insensitive, but I don't care if a mouse that is about to be dead feels 2 seconds of "nasal irritation" before it dies. It's not going to need therapy. So like most people I dump 100% CO2 as fast as possible and it's lights out, right now.
I haven't kept Carolina Pigmies, but I haven't had this issue with dozens of species, venomous or non.
May I suggest an experiment if you have any of these picky feeders around now? Kill a few hoppers by your preferred method and put them in the freezer for a week before feeding them. Thaw out some of those and some of the ones you bought that were probably gassed. Offer the gassed ones first and then the ones you killed.
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RE: Hypoxia and Lactic Acid Build Up in Feeder Mic
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by LarryDFishel on June 22, 2007
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P.S.
>"In severe hypercapnia (generally PaCO2 greater than 10 kPa or 75 mmHg),"
75mmHg is only 7.5% CO2.
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