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forced, of course, to force feed....
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by fizzbob7 on October 24, 2002
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it looks like i will have to force feed my 3.5ft edb....i ordered hemostats and tubes to help with this and i needed them anyway...i am gonna try tease feeding first but if i still get nothing, then i will have to force feed......any tips on pit vipers cuz i only have experience with big pythons in this area...and a really small rainbow boa(that was a pain in the ass).....obviously i dont wanna get bitten....but anything to make it easier...how far should i force it and what are some tricks to hold the mouth open or whatever.....i dont want it to die and i at least need it to eat to get me a good ole stool sample for the vet....help me help me
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RE: forced, of course, to force feed....
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by Charper on October 25, 2002
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DISCLAIMER: It's your choice to handle venomous snakes. I'm not telling you to. That said...
This can be done one of two ways. You can attempt to push the food down his throat - gently - by just using hemostats WHILE HE IS IN THE TUBE. Or, you can grab him behind the head for more control, and put the food down his throat with hemostats. I prefer the latter.
The very first you need to do is hydrate him. Because it takes water to digest food. That may be his problem to begin with. Anyway......soak the EDB in a Rubbermaid trash can (with lid) with about 6 inches of clean water. Keep in there for about 2 hours, periodically checking to see if he has pooped in his water. If so, change it. Then wait a couple of days before you force feed.
I had one go off of feed for 5 months, starting in July. However, I always kept him hydrated and he never got the "emaciated" look. i.e, he wasn't skinny. I waited him out, treated him with Flagyl, gave him 50cc water enemas about once a week, and he finally started eating on his own.
To force feed, get him to crawl into a tube that is about 24 inches long. Secure the rear end of the snake once it is about half way into the tube by lifting the front end of the tube and rear portion to press down G E N T L Y on his rear end. Now, grab the tail and tube simultaneously in one hand. Then, begin to feed him forward into the tube until his head emerges. Once his head emerges from the other end, use a "jigger" to comfortably pin him just behind the eyes. A padded surface - like carpet - is a good platform. ----- Now, "The Grab": Once you have committed yourself to grab the head, do so smoothly and deftly, but not 900mph. [Safety Tip: Watch for him trying to suddenly jerk his head backward in reaction to your grab.]
Your thumb and middle finger should end up on either side of his head, firmly seated against his jawbones. Your index finger goes on top of his head. HOLD him firmly, but don't choke him. Try your best not to cause him any pain or distress during this treatment, as it can be hazardous for both you and the snake. [Safety Tip: NEVER LIFT A SNAKE THAT IS ONLY SECURED BY THE NECK. It will thrash and possibly shake itself loose.]
What will make your job easier, and will reduce stress on the snake, is if you force feed it about 5 large mice, NOT a RAT. Put a glass beside you with egg yolks in it to dip the mice in while you are in the process of force feeding. That will act as a lubricant. Put them down with a large set of hemostats one by one. (Once one of them is down his throat, use your hand to gently assist in moving it toward his stomach until you are confident that he will not regurge it.)
[I'd try to make this at least a 3 person job if you have never done it before. You really need someone experienced to help you. NO NON-HERPERS ALLOWED. They will either get you, or themselves bitten. Two people to hold, and one to insert the mice.]
You may want to have someone use the jigger to pin him down again while you let go of his head. Then remove the jigger.
Put him back into his cage by allowing him to continue to crawl forward through the tube.
Afterward, keep the temps on him at around 75F. Make sure he has a basking light. As long as the temps are up, he will digest his food properly. (How large is his cage? The larger the better.)
Feed him up well enough to make it through a brumation period. You may have to force feed about 3 or 4 times prior. About mid to late December, (after he has pooped out), go ahead and drop the temps on him 48F nights, 55 to 60F days) till around mid-March (all the while keeping him hydrated).
When you start warming him back up in mid to late March, begin offering him food once he has been at around 75F for at least a week. At some point, he will begin feeding on his own, ravenously.
CH
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RE: forced, of course, to force feed....
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by TomT on October 25, 2002
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I just wanted to comment that you might want to save this information (Word file perhaps?) to share with others in the future... maybe put this on an FAQ page??
My only additional comment is that I generally keep temperate climate snakes at a slightly higher ambient temperature during the daytime (during spring, summer and fall at least) than the temps you suggest, but your advice is sound and timely.
Tom
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RE: forced, of course, to force feed....
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by fizzbob7 on October 25, 2002
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thanks for being so explicit but as far as restraining him, the viper hold, etc., i have done that to the point where its second nature...this snake in particular hates hooks so pinning him and grabbing him is the only way to move him when i clean...but when i hold him like that, to keep a firm enough hold, wont that impede the food from going down, kinda like a bottleneck, and as far as brumation, so i HAVE to, because that seems troublesome and a lot of people have told me i didnt have to do it...thanks
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RE: forced, of course, to force feed....
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by Charper on October 25, 2002
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You don't HAVE to brumate him, but since he is not eating well and you want to stimulate his appetite, I'd do it. Not to mention the fact that he is probably genetically predisposed not to eat during those months anyway. Dropping the temps on him will slow his metabolism and allow him to live off of the meals that you force feed him -- longer.
CH
PS - Off to Columbia now.
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RE: forced, of course, to force feed....
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by fizzbob7 on October 26, 2002
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i disagree completely...if this were his 12th brumation period and the first year i had him, maybe, but this is his first, maybe second, and if he were sick, he would simply die....if after i feed him and he checks out, i will definitely try it, but thats a last resort for me.....my main objective is to get down one meal and get a fecal sample to see if anything shows up and then get the snake checked out....
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RE: forced, of course, to force feed....
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by fizzbob7 on October 26, 2002
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something else....if he does check out healthwise, and does have to go through brumation....what is the best way to do this....if i turn off the light, it will be around 65-70....what is a good way to cool it artificially without buying an a/c unit of somekind...any tricks....and charper, i dont mean to sound like a prick and someone that is disregarding some free help, but at this point i just have a strong feeling he either has worms or something else wrong....something just doesnt seem right....thanks again
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RE: forced, of course, to force feed....
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by Charper on October 28, 2002
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I was assuming you had eliminated the possibility of parasites. Sometimes, normal seemingly healthy snakes just stop eating. It's not a big deal to get the meals in him. If he is healthy, he will metabolize them simply because he is at a correct temp. to do so. You have 2 months - at least - to put a little weight on him. The fecal is the obvious part of this equation. Once you have sorted out all the known factors
cage size
fecal
temp gradient
substrate
hide box
basking light
hydration
light cycles
and any other factor you can think of, there just comes a time when you just have to force feed. But once you do that, if you don't brumate him, you may end up having to force feed him for a year. The brumation period has the effect of naturally stimulating his appetite, and he will (in most cases) begin eating on his own come Spring.
CH
aka the webmaster
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RE: forced, of course, to force feed....
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by Charper on October 28, 2002
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How do you brumate him?
First, let him excrete out all of the meals you have given him. Then, put his cage in a place where the temps will drop no lower than 48F. Temps should vary from 48F nights to 60F days. Keep clean water in his cage and leave him alone most of the time. Allow normal winter light cycles in the room with him.
CH
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Always pinning?
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by Charper on October 28, 2002
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Oh yes, I also noticed that you said "He hates hooks so you pin him every time to move him." That's probably a big stresser for him and possibly a reason that he isn't eating. Click on my nickname link "CHarper" and look at the photo of me moving a big edb. You can move any edb with the 2 hook method.
CH
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