RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by Atrox788 on November 16, 2007
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Doug, did you ever know that your my hero? LOL Seriously, I agree completely!
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by jared on November 16, 2007
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THough most people here do not want to accept it, the reptile "trade" is one of the most prolific markets in the US (The overall market has millions of US buyers) and what most people also arent getting is Yes, there are guys and gals out there who will pay and breed these snakes out, and thought I am not a big morph guy I understand the concept and again, the market thats out there. I have sold herps since the mid 80s and as with every market there are rises and falls, now is a VERY slow period (as for most this is a hobby) and with the war and economy the way it is its obviously harder to find buyers (remember 96 to 2000) when you could sell everything on your table for top dollar the first day of the show without negotiation,But keep in mind high end buyers are still there and so is the demand though slightly less. Also one thing that is also forgotten is that all of the "buyers" in this market are not all a bunch of guys tryin to impress there friends. As with the Dog, cat, equine, fish, etc cultures and markets, there are good and bad owners, keepers, breeders, in both not all people buying high end animals are just doing it to make money (as I would never survive selling snakes, after feeding n care etc lol)some actually spend it because they truely love the animals. I mean, have ya NEVER seen the Celebs n rockstars buyin herps at shows? Henry Rollins( he was also a herp curator for those who dont know,)? Saw Jeff Hardy (wwe wrestler) buying snakes at his local Raliegh show (got his autograph for my nephew even though he was hiding his hair and tats lol). Just saying, for some the money for that project isnt a concern.
Jared Watts
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by jared on November 16, 2007
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Btw just for the record, My specialty is agkistrodon lol I assume that that is all I need to say to show that some breeders are not in it just for the money lol
Jared
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by Atrox788 on November 16, 2007
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Your right Jared but some folks definately are in it for the money. My main beef however isnt with the morph folks so much. They can do whatever they want, just dont expect me to buy any. I have much more of a problem with scum bags who capture every single snake they see and put it up for sale. There were a few dealer at the SC show who had WC black rats, cvanebrakes and copperheads going for $5-$25. That is simply nonsense and show these people have no respect for the animals they are trying to peddle. Aquireing WC locality specimens for your own breeding projects is one thing. Raping wildlife is another.
Anyway, I dont want to turn this thread off topic. BTW, shoot me an email with your number bro. If you still have those beautiful A.c.mokasen I am interested.
Later,
J
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by SERPENTOR on November 16, 2007
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Condescending, huh? This is condescending:
"What made me laugh was that the snake was nothing but a normal albeit nicely colored southern copperhead and this breeder calls it a "pastel"...are there really that many idiots out there who fall for this stuff? $50K balls, $2k copperheads, what's next?"
I take offense to the bashing of a friend & those whose very salaries are paid by the people they have contempt for. Call it what you like but what we have here is a clear case of forum nazis. First nobody cleared it w/ atrox 788 that the animals be called Pastels, then it wasn't cleared by Rob that the asking price be $2,000/pr. (not 2K/ea. btw), & now I have shown blatant disregard by not filling out my profile. I should be burnt alive at the stake as I am probably practicing witch craft to be acting in such a way. It is no wonder Americans have lost so many of our personal freedoms. They should have included a clause in the Patriot Act about private citizens keeping Venomous snakes as it is very easy to impose fear by mentioning deadly Venomous serpents. I say we leave Venomous snake handling to the "professionals", get a federal ID system in order, & all get microchips w/ radio transmitters so we can just kill the people that don't conform to all these rules.
As for me, I am nobody. I clean up snake, raccoon, dog, & rat poop as a hobby - they seem to reproduce on their own when properly taken care of. I have no profile cause I don't feel it necessary that everyone knows who I am as I'm not that important. I've been on this site for 4 yrs. + & keeping HOTs for 14 yrs. My first venomous was an Albino Monocled (let the flaming begin LOL). If you're looking to get to know me personally, I don't swing that way & I'm married to a great gal but I'm not a homo-phobe so its all good. The only thing I hate (besides judgemental fascist pigs, religous zealots, & politicians) is seeing WC snakes anywhere close to my captive bred/born beauties. Nothin' worse than seeing emaciated stressed out snakes (full of parasites & disease) trapped in a cage while wild populations are depleted from loss of habitat & over collecting.
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by Jahon on November 16, 2007
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I agree with you very much so Jeremy. I once had a WC red diamondback and when I told my parents they went for $100-$200 each they told me to sell it. I told them if I wanted to get rid of it, I'll just release it. Which I ended up doing. I don't think I would ever sell a WC snake, the only one I would probably sell is a CB that I can no longer keep. I also have a dislike of people who sell every snake they find. I'm not in this hobby for money at all, I have no future plans of selling any snakes or even breeding them LOL. I'll lose a lot more of my money in this hobby then I will ever gain. Completely off topic LOL but just giving my side of this matter. =)
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by ChunkHead on November 17, 2007
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Several things here: like most of you, I have seen and bred more than my share of copperheads. I took a good look at the photos of Jamie's hypomelanistic snakes, and I saw them in person at the SC show. Although I believe that animals that are similar to these can be found (ie., that fall into the range of natural variation for Southern copperheads), to have clutches of identical looking babies that are different from other clutches suggests to me that there is a mutant gene at play here. I have bred Southern copperheads since the mid-90's and haven't had babies that look like Jamie's.
Jamie, were there normal looking babies born in the clutch with your pastel animals?
As for all the wild caught animals at the show, that is only partly on the vendors. The people who put on the shows should police the vendors, having knowledgeable folks walk around and demand that 'obviously' wild caught or sickly animals be removed from the building. If these animals aren't allowed into the shows then there is less of an incentive for people to catch them, and this may give the politicians less to bitch about. Our hobby will be forever scrutinized and it's up to us to make sure that they don't have the ammo they require to give us a hard time.
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by ChuckHurd on November 18, 2007
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“Capitalism: An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
In such a system, individuals and firms have the right to own and use wealth to earn income and to sell and purchase labor for wages with little or no government control. The function of regulating the economy is then achieved mainly through the operation of market forces where prices and profit dictate where and how resources are used and allocated. The U.S. is a capitalistic system. “
Guys, I am not sure if you are confused about the economic system we have in the United States or if you are confused about where you live. Jamie’s copperheads, wild caught snakes, hybrids, venomiods, etc are all controlled by the free market. Jamie can put whatever price tag he wants on his property. Taz can collect all the cottonmouths he wants and offer them for sell. As long as there is someone willing to buy collected snakes, there is going to be someone to collect and sell them. It’s how things work here in the US. If you don’t want to pay $1000 for Jamie’s Hypo copper, then don’t. Problem solved, no one is affected. If you do not want to buy collected snakes, then don’t. Again, problem is solved. Why do you think you have the right to set market prices or dictate what snakes should be offered for sale? Some of you mentioned the copper and cotton hybrids. Far as I know, I had the only one there. She wasn’t for sale, but I probably had 20 people ask if she was and I think 5 or 6 made actual cash offers. There is demand on them, so I will be breeding her and filling that demand. I personally like shopping thru the tables with a bunch of collected snakes. You never know what you might find. I would venture as far as to say, Keith Taylor collected more North American snakes then anyone else in history. He was a personal friend of mine, I talked to him just days before he passed away. He earned a living the last few years of his life collecting snakes. He was meeting a demand. If there wasn’t people wanting the snakes, there would have been no profit in him catching them. As for the original sprit if this thread, if there were not people willing to pay disproportionate prices for new and/or unusual snake morphs, Jamie would not set the price at $1000. Look at the money that was made with the albino EDB and cottonmouth was first offered. Before hand, did any of you ever think a cotton would pull $3000? I know that I didn’t, but the first albinos offered did. I think the lucies are still pulling $2000. Of course, the price when down, but when they were new, yeah. Ppl paid that. The market is starving for copperhead morphs. Coppers are the most popular venomous snake in captivity. I probably sell 3 coppers to everyone one rattler and maybe 5 or 6 to every 1 cotton. When copper morphs can be brought to the table, there is demand. Jamie didn’t move any at the show, but we all know high end stuff never moves at Columbia. Everyone comes there looking for a deal. If he stands his ground on the price, someone, somewhere, sometime will be willing to pay $2000/pair on those. I think Mike got $1500 on some hypos a couple years ago, and these are far more unusual in appearance. In closing, Jamie can charge what he wants for his own copperheads. Taz can catch all the snakes the wants and offer them for sale. I can breed hybrids and sale them……so long as there is someone to pay the asking high asking price, want the collected snakes, and want to hybrids. Its how our economic system works. If you do not want to pay the price, own a collected snake or a hybrid, then just don’t buy them. Someone else will and we will all be happy.
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by Atrox788 on November 19, 2007
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Agreed. However, its a free country and a free forum. I can criticize him all I want :-D Just so long as I don't resort to name calling or bashing. Though this topic is hearted I think we all kept a calm demeanor and that is why it hasn't been removed. Criticizing is a part of life. God knows I get it enough.
God bless America!
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by agkistrodude on November 19, 2007
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Ya, I'm all for capitalism and the free market,I would never pay $1,000.00 for a copperhead, but if he can find someone who will, more power to him. MartyM
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