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RE: how many years as a hot keeper and how many bi
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by Rob_Carmichael on February 13, 2008
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Bites shouldn't happen...but, as has been stated several times, they can and it doesn't only happen to idiots, it can happen to the best in the field. The key and most basic element of understanding in the keeping of hots is to minimize risks (eliminating risks is preferred but we are infallable human beings). There are many risk factors involved but a few absolutes that everyone should follow. There are many situations that can put us in harm's way that has been shared here - taking off eyecaps, preparing a neonate for shipping in a deli cup, bagging/unbagging, equipment failure, and a host of other scenarios. All require unique situational problem solving and quick thinking that oftentimes results in thinking of the needs of the animal before our own safety which can lead to disaster. I tend to stray towards the ultra safe side but I can still think of several close calls throughout my career and we just hope we are prepared if that day ever comes.
There are some pretty opinionated folks here who have a very blinder-like view of the world and while I'm always the first one criticizing folks for getting bit, it can happen and while its always keeper error, sometimes, like in any hobby or profession, accidents can happen - even to people who follow every consideration to its finest detail of safety. Unfortunately, when I look at some of the folks' profiles on this site, I just shake my head and say "he'll be a statistic one day".
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
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RE: how many years as a hot keeper and how many bi
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by richardduckworth on February 13, 2008
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jared, you seem VERY defensive. everyone knows accidents happen. some are stupid, some are just bad luck. you seem to be hung up on your bite far more than anyone else. if you learned something from it, then you've improved yourself. most on here will recall a mistake i made last year. i definitely learned something from it. everyone screws up.
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RE: how many years as a hot keeper and how many bi
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by 23bms on February 13, 2008
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What bothers me is the attitude that "accidents happen." If that is sitting in the back of your mind, sooner or later you probably WILL be a statistic. If your attitude is "accidents should never happen and I'm going to do everything I can to see that one doesn't happen to me" then you've given yourself a fighting chance.
The fact that you're engaged in a repetitive and dangerous job doesn't change that. Suppose an airline pilot with tens of thousands of hours and thousands of landings is running behind, wants to get home or whatever and gets careless and smacks the plane in. Suppose he walks away and only loses ten or fifteen passengers. Does anyone think the FAA accident board is going to be impressed with the argument that "I've done this hundreds of times. I was rushed. I guess I forgot to set the trim. Hey, accidents happen." During my B-52 days, one hint of that sort of attitude from a crew member and I wouldn't get on an airplane with him. Probably 95% of peace time B-52 accidents were due to crew error and those were almost invariably due to complacency. The cost of such carelessness? On the average a mere half dozen or so trained crew members and a seven million dollar (in 1960 dollars) airframe. At least the hot keeper/worker is, usually, only endangering himself.
The private keeper has no excuse. Thousands of them out there have worked with their animals for years and never been tagged. What about zoos and the like. Does someone like Rob Carmichael need someone on his staff who shrugs and says "accidents happen?" I don't think so. As for the professional venom extractors, is it not possible that changes in the staffing level, the routine or some other factor could possibly mitigate at least some of that risk? Is the person who resigns himself to an accident probably being inevitable going to critically evaluate the procedures in an effort to reduce that risk at least somewhat? Maybe so, more likely not.
My point is simply that the underlying attitude toward risk in part determines the effective level of that risk. If nothing else, I hope the private keepers give that some thought.
jrb
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RE: how many years as a hot keeper and how many bi
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by MoccasinMan on February 13, 2008
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jrb- I don't know who you are, but I like your thought process. 95% of everything is attitude. Superior Attitude + Superior Preparation + Attention to detail= Superior Results. If you are sloppy, stoned, distracted or just stupid, you will eventually get bit. Even the prepared mind is subject to Murphy's Law, and things can go wrong. But this hobby is about preparation and skill and limiting risk. If you are taking unnecessary chances you are a fool.
Andrew
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RE: how many years as a hot keeper and how many bi
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by richardduckworth on February 13, 2008
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but do you crucify a guy for being bitten? if that person learns from the experience, then it wasn't totally bad.
look at florida's permit system. last i heard, you don't have your license revoked for one bite. maybe after 2 or 3.
accidents DO happen. seeing that when concerning others is fine.
i agree though that if you assume you'll be bitten, you probably will. i just don't see the point for crucifying others AFTER they've been bitten.
it's like whipping your kid for spilling some milk. try to PREVENT any further occurrences and learn from the last, but no need to cry over it. it won't help a thing.
another commonly used addage is "get back on the horse".
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RE: how many years as a hot keeper and how many bi
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by MoccasinMan on February 13, 2008
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No, I don't think you crucify someone for being bit. You hope that they turn it into a learning experience.
AW
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RE: how many years as a hot keeper and how many bi
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by Rob_Carmichael on February 14, 2008
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JRB - Believe me, I agree with you 100%...in fact, you probably echo my thoughts better than myself. There is no excuse for getting bit - I'm right there with you. There's no reason that a keeper should ever get bit - 100% in agreement. But, with that being said, accidents can happen - not out of being careless (like those numskulls who free handle fully loaded venomous herps...those folks should not be allowed to keep venomous herps) but out of having to perform important procedures that puts the keeper close to harm's way. Yes, there are many tools available to minimize this risk but there is still a risk. I'm not sure what venomous herps you have extensive experience with but there are some species where things can get a little delicate. Your analogy of the airplane pilot is a little skewed - if a pilot really messes up, lots of people die. If keeper makes a mistake, he only has himself to blame and hopefully, no one else around. Pilots make small mistakes all the time that come close to complete disasters....venomous keepers, too, have close calls every now and then and yes, it shouldn't happen...ever. Personally, venomous keeper's probably make far fewer mistakes than pilots and control tower personnel!
It's my belief that most people shouldn't own venomous snakes because most don't possess the required skills, psyche, maturity and resources to properly care for them in a safe manner to themselves, the animal and the public. I see far too many folks who are completely inept at keeping venomous herps and they are the ones that end up getting bit and then the hospital calling me to send them our supply of CroFab or something else. It's no wonder we are seeing one state after another taking our rights away and there are times where I don't blame them. We can't police ourselves, we see far too many yin yangs keeping and selling venomous herps as if they were keeping/selling corn snakes and I have to admit I get a little fed up with it.
Thankfully, though, I know many knowledgeable private individuals who keep venomous herps in a manner that is safe, appropriate and responsbile and for them, I would never want to see them have their right's taken away.
Bites are inexcusable....but for those who have been bitten, and survived, I can only hope they don't make the same mistake twice. At my facility, if you get bit, you are taken off the venomous run; period....we've never had a venomous bite in 20 years and we work very closely with these animals. So, in some way, perfection is mandatory but I'm not going to judge other folks if a bite occurred (unless the bite happened out of shear stupidity).
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RE: how many years as a hot keeper and how many bi
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by 23bms on February 14, 2008
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Rob:
I appreciate your comment.
I used the aircraft analogy because it is a very unforgiving profession and I've been there (military). Yes, the magnitude of the repercussions are usually far far greater for a flier than the venomous keeper. But the underlying attitude that keeps you alive up there also keeps you alive down here. I don't recall many (if any!) flawless missions, but those mistakes were small and they were usually made because you were focusing on the really critical issues. Yes, there are some things, both in flying and herpetology, that are simply out of your control - the guy who had his F-15 split in half on him a couple of months ago is a good example. There is also that amorphous gray middle ground that calls for sound judgement. Judgement is an ever changing amalgam of knowledge, training, experience and attitude, and is unquestionably the toughest and yet the most crucial skill to acquire, whether for the professional flier or the amateur herper with a Copperhead or two. Though the analogy may have been stretched a little, the underlying principles governing success and safety are the same.
Incidentally, regarding commercial air and Air Traffic Control, I won't fly commercial, or, for that matter, anything else anymore. Admittedly, a bit of overcompensation, but I'm a much happier person for it.
jrb
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