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RE: rattlesnake bites
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by soberwolf on June 13, 2008
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P.s. I know ya'll are joking about the matches but if crotchdaddy aka muffdaddy gets wind hell sell it
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RE: rattlesnake bites
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by JoeCrotalid on June 13, 2008
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Well shelby, I think every body here has concurred with antivenom being the best course of treatment and answered the initial question to that end. Nobody has advocated any folklore treatments.
We're all quite aware of the approprate treatment for snakebites, and are not in the habit of providing incorrect advice when it comes to their management. Chris, Jeff, and myself are all quite experienced in the management of snakebites. With regards to Sean-these were simple jests!
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RE: rattlesnake bites
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by BigBend66 on June 14, 2008
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The average adult Rattlesnake bite is 1/2 deep which obviously means a match wouldn't not even get close to the venom even if you stuck it down in the bite site while lit. LOL
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RE: rattlesnake bites
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by Cro on June 14, 2008
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The idea about the hot match stem does bring to mind a couple of things.
There are reports, especially from the pioneer days, of people who were snake bitten immediatly using something like a red hot fireplace poker or branding iron directly on the bite. If we assume that the heat destroyed the protiens in the venom and rendered the bite harmless, we would also have to assume that the heat would destroy the surrounding human tissue protiens at the same time, and probably do a lot of damage. However, recovery from a burn might be easier than recovery from a snake bite, especially, if antivenin was not available.
So, one has to ask, would a severe burn be worth preventing the effects of a rattlesnake bite ? Perhaps.
That is kind of like the folks who immediatly cut their fingers or hand off following a King Cobra or Mamba or Bushmaster or Sea Snake bite. High price to pay, but maybee it saved their lives.
Anyway, the reason I am bringing this up, is that that there are piezoelectric transducers out there, that can produce Ultra High Frequency energy. This energy can be conducted through skin, and in the process can create targeted heat. This technology is being used right now by doctors to destroy cancers in the prostrate. What the are basically doing is heating the targeted cancerous tissue to a temperature that is high enough to destroy it. This heating is usually only a couple of seconds long, is very focused to a specific spot, and creates a very high temperature that destroys the cancerous tissue.
So, I have theorized that these same transducers could be focused so that they had a focal point of 1/2 inch depth, and connected to a step up transformer and a capasiter, and built into something resembling a flash light. The idea would be that the electric burst would produce an UHF wave that would penetrate the flesh to the depth of a snake bite, and would heat the surrounding tissues proximal to the bite to a temperature that would render the venom inactive. There would of course be some residual damage to surrounding tissues. However, if the energy beam was focused sharp enough, so that it mostly hit the area where the fangs and venom was, the prozimal tissue damage would be minimal. We basically could have instantaneous heating of a small area containing venom immediatly following a bite, that would render the venom harmless. This would have to be done very quickly following a bite, before the venom spread from the site. That is why the flashlight configeration would work well, as it could be carried as a first aid device in the field. I am sure it would hurt like heck, but it just might be able to render a bite harmless. The parts for the transducer are fairly expensive, about $300.00 and the rest of the parts could be made from an old photo flash. When I get a chance I will put one of these together and see if it works.
There are already devices like this that are in use for relaxation an sending heat into sore joints and muscles, however, they lack the focus of a very intensely focused beam, and they lack the very rapid rise in tissue temperature that would happen from a burst of electrical current that could be had from a photo flash strobe. Similar technology is used in the stun guns out there, but in this case, the electrical current would be changed to heat by the transducer.
Anyway, the reason I am puting this idea out in the public domain, is that I am hoping some medical folks will see this, and perhaps help me find out just which UHF transducers are being used in prostrate cancer treatment, and perhaps will help me obtain a transducer to play with in the experiments. By knowing what is allready in use, I can research the specs, and determine how to set the focal length for the pulse so that it hits at the bottom depth of an average snake bite. Then I could conduct tests on porcine voulenteers. (Smell that bacon cooking, LOL)
I would love to hear feedback from anyone who has an similar intrest in this. Several things need to be determined. One, is just how much heat is needed to destroy snake venoms. This could be determined in a test tube. Also, how much heat can human tissue take ?
The question is would it be worth a small deep tissue burn to destroy snake venom in situ from a bite ???
Anyway, just a theory / invention of mine that I hope to build sometime in the near future and test to see if it will work on venoms. The inventing is easy, the bringing inventions to life is a whole different thing, LOL !
But I am serious about actually building and testing this device. The worse that could happen is that it would not work on real life snake bites, and I would be out a few hundred dollars. The best that could happen is that it would work as theorized.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: rattlesnake bites
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by JoeCrotalid on June 14, 2008
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John:
Early treatments for snakebites have included alcohol consumption and pouring into the wound, strychnine, purges, cathartics, kerosene in the wound, sea water, ligatures, amputations, excisions, ethyl chloride freezing, cutting the wound and kneading out the venom, local injections of calcium chloride, packing the wound with potassium crystals, topical chromic acid, and yes! Electrical shock!
The principle of electrical shock in snakebites has been tested and found to be ineffective and useless. The only proven treatment for snakebites is the administration of antivenom whether it is CroFab, Wyeth Polyvalent or Vipermyn (Bioclon), or the appropriate antivenom.
I would not discourage you from your goal. The electrical stimulator you referred to is called a TENS unit and stimulates muscles to contract and relax. With regards to the cancer treatment, I can't help you there-not familar with it. But electrical shock in snakebites is a bust.
Joe
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RE: rattlesnake bites
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by FLherp on June 15, 2008
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I got bit by a spider and put my hand in my daughter's EZ Bake Oven for fifteen minutes, Knowing it would produce heat, but not enough to cook my hand. I survived the attack with only minor burns to my hand and the pain and swelling lasted only a few hours. Therefore the heat produced by EZ Bake Ovens will neutralize the venom of spiders. Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
Many snakebites will not produce fatalities, even with a lack of proper care. If you throw misidentifications into the mix (a non-venomous species assumed to be venomous), many more will survive. In some areas, all snakes are considered venomous. These treatments are based on anecdotal information, the 'urban legends' of snakebite treatment. What about the people who died despite all of these ministrations, or perhaps because of them?
Most spider bites are not clinically significant. They produce local pain and swelling. Burn any spider bite, you may increase the pain and the patient will very likely survive. He would have survived without the burn.
Most people cannot identify snakes and spiders, and operate on the belief that all such incidents are life threatening.
Unfortunately, venoms contain components that speed the spread throughout tissues - really fast. Once insinuated in the tissues, will the heat be able to target just the venom? Doubtful. It would not even be able to target metastasized cancer cells until they formed a tumor large enough to be visible.
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RE: rattlesnake bites
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by Cro on June 15, 2008
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Joe, I know that electrical current has been shown to not work on snake bites, however, I was talking about an electrical current that is producing a radio wave (sound wave) that has been turned into directed heat through the induction of vibrations into the tissue.
And as far as the TENS units, (Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation), those are not quite what I was talking about, as those use electrical current to block pain.
I am talking about using Ultra High Frequency waves (Decimeter Band Radio Waves) that are closer to what we know as "microwaves." You know how a microwave oven heats food from the inside out, by creating a vibration that creates heat. Same principal to direct waves through tissue to creat heat at a very specific focal point. This is what the cancer doctors are using.
Think of injecting snake venom into a potato, and sticking that potato in a microwave oven for a few seconds. Would the venom be destroyed ? Sure. How long would it take ? Hard to say. What temperature would it have to reach before it broke down ? Again, hard to say. Would the damage to the potato be worse than the venom ? Again, hard to say. I am not suggesting that folks stick their snake bitten hands into the microwave, just for the record.
You are right about the hundreds of snake bite treatments that have appeared over the years. Some of them are just funny, and some were actually based on chemicals that could nuturlize venom in a test tube, but did not work after venom was injected into tissue.
Jeff, you might be right about "Once insinuated in the tissues, will the heat be able to target just the venom? Doubtful."
However, I think that it might be worth testing to find out for certain. If it did work, it would have a very narrow window of opportunity to be effective, probably one to three minutes maximum, while the venom was concentrated at a specific location. this would limit the devices use as something that would be carried in the field, or in a snake room, where it could quickly be put to use. Any time period longer than that, and the venom would have spread too far for the device to be of use. The idea is that the discharge of the capacitor produces a burst of UHF waves that would travel through the skin to the focal point, and instantly heat the tissue there to a temperature that might de-activate venom.
But, that is what science is all about. Developing theories, then testing them. Now, to just find a UHF transducer with the correct focal point.
Some envenomations from Stone Fish and Lion Fish are treated by imersion therapy in hot water of 114 degrees F. This heats those venoms to the point that they are rendered harmless, without damaging the human tissue. However, the spines of those fishes do not penetrate the tissues as deep as a viperid snakes fangs would. Also, snake venoms might require higher temperatures, and might be more difficult to break down, due to being more complex.
As far as the Easy Bake Oven, LOL, well, it would be a bit big to tote along in the field, however, might be usefull for cooking a warm lunch.
Thanks for your ideas on this. Would be great to hear from someone who actually uses UHF in targeted treatment of cancers for their views. That way, I could find out many of the technical details that would help determine if this idea is possible.
Best Regards John Z
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