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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by theemojohnm on August 21, 2008
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""I am pretty confident in saying that ANY pit-viper on the same species bite woiuld not affect the other of the same species (anyone correct me if I'm wrong)..."
OK, you're wrong. :)
I have not yet seen a snake DIE from a bite from the same species, but I've seen plenty of them with bloody heads, so swollen their mouths won't close, sometimes lasting for days. Usually not life-threatening, but probably not very pleasant for the snake. "
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LOL... Yes, that Is what I stated (although maybe not so clear). I meant that, the VENOM of the same species (even different but similar species in alot of cases) will not affcte another of the same species like it would a rodent if bitten. But injury, (facial damage, bodily wounds, deep puncture wounds, and further injuries to both the snake bitten, and the one who struck) can lead to infection or otherwise lead to very poor health or death of the snake.
~John.
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by FSB on August 21, 2008
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Thanks John M, I was about to post the same thing... basically, that I wasn't thinking about the effects of venom from snakes biting one another so much as I was the possibility of infection, though copperheads and cottonmouths seem to get over these things pretty easily. But on that note, I once went to pick up a large collection and the seller had packed a small cottonmouth in with a large and beautiful TR, and reported upon my arrival that the cottonmouth had bitten the rattlesnake earlier. I was bummed and worried about it all the way home, and for a day or two afterwards, but I watched the rattlesnake closely and never noticed any ill effects whatsoever.
John Z, your description of cottonmouths feeding is dead-on. I have always been amused(or something)that when feeding my breeding pair the larger female will abandon her rat and go after the male's. Copperheads do this kinda junk too, and often end up trading rodents. Timber rattlesnakes are definitely much more intelligent, and have MUCH better manners. Squabbling over food is somehow beneath their dignity.
However, (now to expose my own hypocrisy) I do have one pair of timbers that really seem to enjoy being together. When I separated them after a generous period of breeding activity, they became very stressed, restlessly patrolling their cages and sounding their rattles constantly. But when placed together, they are as quiet and happy as clams. So I finally just gave in and now keep them together, and they are very polite and well-mannered and eat together in peace, but that's definitely an odd exception to the rule.
By the way, I am amazed that you have a 35-year captive TR that started out as an adult. Doesn't that qualify as a record? You should post a picture of that guy.
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by puffadder7 on August 21, 2008
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i had my daimondbacks together for a long time so thats why i feed them together i used to put dividers when feeding now i dont even bother, they eat whats in front of them i would not bother splitting them up because of stress reasons, arin
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by Rob_Carmichael on August 21, 2008
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That's the kind of complacency that will lead to disaster....normal viewpoing for younger keepers (I didn't read your profile but I have a hunch you are a younger person). You may have a 100 feeding experiences go just fine and then one day, dead snake. Just something to keep in mind. Use those dividers you mentioned.
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by puffadder7 on August 21, 2008
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no i am not a younger person sorry you think that, just becuase i dont go in to full detail i see why you think that, arin
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by Cro on August 21, 2008
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"That's the kind of complacency that will lead to disaster....normal viewpoing for younger keepers"
I have to dissagree with that one.
I find that complacency is much more common with OLDER REPTILE KEEPERS, who have had years of experience, and is NOT a common practice in younger keepers.
Venomous keeping has become routine with older, more experienced keepers, and they seem to loose the "fear ?" or "respect ?" that they once had for the dangers of the animals they keep.
Most of the younger keepers that I know who keep venomous snakes are very carefull and safety conscious. I can not say the same for many of the older keepers I have met.
Although statistics say that most venomous snakebites in this country are to males who are 18 to 26 years old, who have been drinking, many of those bites are from snakes that rednecks found while camping and hunting and such. And the folks could not resist "messing with the snake." They are mostly not venomous keepers.
I would be willing to bet that the incidence of snakebites to venomous snake keepers is much higher in the 26 year old plus age group, and not in the 14 to 25 year old group.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by Buzztail1 on August 21, 2008
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Well Arin, your profile says that you are 16 which, in almost any group of people, makes you "younger".
That being said, I don't think "complacency" is what gets most "younger" herpers bitten either. What, in my opinion, does get them bitten (younger herpers) is something we see in the forums here from time to time. It is a kind of mindset that can be paraphrased as "So what if I get bitten? It is my life not yours." And "That is what antivenom is for." Pretty much the attitude which seems prevalent throughout the SHORT life story of Joe Slowinski (even though he was allergic to antivenom). Please note that I am not attributing this attitude solely to the young and am in no way saying that it applies to Arin.
What Rob refers to in the "100 feedings" analogy is certainly valid. Professional and even long-term private keepers note untypical behaviors all the time which by themselves are not really noteworthy but at the time of the observation could be catastrophic.
I wrote an article about just such an observation for the SHHS in 2000:
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/13
To keep on topic and to elaborate on my post earlier, Lots of people keep multiple snakes together. Even professional keepers such as zoos. Doing so is, by definition, more dangerous than keeping animlas individually even if only due to the fact that you have to split your attention between multiple animals every time you open the cage. Feeding in such a situation can be managed but requires more attention and management than single specimen feeding, if only to observe and see that the snakes are not aggressive to each other. In making recommendations for the SAFEST and the BEST ways to keep MOST venomous snakes, keeping multiple venomous snakes together is not the way to go. BUT it can be done.
This is a rather long post for me.
I meant nothing negative or personal to anyone.
I just don't want this to degenrate into an older keeper VS younger keeper, more experienced keeper VS less experienced keeper, etc. debate.
R/
Karl
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by theemojohnm on August 21, 2008
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Amen to that Karl !
I hate such debates, on BOTH sides of the argument. I see both points, but feel that its the individual.
If you are old enough to talk, reason, and understand :
you can be alert and cautious, or obtain the "I'm toungh enough and dont have to worry" attitude.
If you are YOUNG enough to STILL talk, reason, and understand :
you can be alert and cautious, or obtain the "I'm toungh enough and dont have to worry" attitude.
I am 16 too BTW. And most people on the forums (and EVEN in person) never realize this.
I dont think its as much about age, as individual personality. For every two 14-25 year olds who thin they know it all, there is at least one who is mature enough to have some sence.
WOW.. Sorry, I really fed into this...
Let it be the end! This thread has been side-tracked enough and the "whos a more "worthy" venomous keeper argument" annoys be greatly.
~John.
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by Cro on August 21, 2008
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Karl makes a very good point when he says:
"It is a kind of mindset that can be paraphrased as "So what if I get bitten? It is my life not yours." And "That is what antivenom is for."
I see that attitude in BOTH young and old keepers, way too often. What is amazing, is that we have tons of gruesome photos on this site of just how much damage a venomous snakebite can do, and you would think that would scare folks into being more carefull, but in the real world, that rarely happens. Perhaps because the folks choose to think that they are more carefull, or more skilled, or faster, or more lucky ??? Hard to say ?
ALL venomous keepers of ALL AGES need to be very carefull and respectfull of the deadly potential of the venomous snakes that they keep. I also do not want this thread to become a comparison between young and old keepers. There will always be good and bad at all ages and experience levels.
It is just frustrating to me when, time and time again, a couple of individuals here are so quick to label all young keepers as being complacent, reckless, or incompetent.
That judgement comes way too quickly. It is made without knowing anything about the young individual involved, or their maturity level, or experience with venomous snakes, or what mentoring they might have had. Often they are criticized and judged by things like the grammar and sentance structure they use on this forum, as if that has anything to do with their ability to be safe venomous reptile keepers.
Often, that quick criticizism scares some young kid from the site. A great example is the 10 year old who last week asked about gaboon vipers vs rhino vipers.
He did not say anything about wanting to keep those snakes, he just asked a question to participate in the forum. No one asked him to fill in his profile as to his age or experience level. Instead, folks quickly jumped all over him because he simply worded a initial question poorly.
This site is supposed to be about Education. How are we supposed to educate folks if we scare them away from the site by criticizing them about their age ?
Now back to the Multiple Snakes in a Cage Thread.
The example of the Moody Zoo with the mixed bush viper and gaboon exhibit shows clearly what a bad idea mixing snakes in a cage is.
A worse example was the Smithsonian travelling exhibit that went around the country a few years back. Those nit-whits had a Gaboon Viper in the botton of the cage, and a Green Mamba in the top. The Mamba had to be tonged out of the cage each time they wanted to clean the cage or feed the Gaboon. There was no trap / switch box to lock the Mamba into. Talk about a disaster and poor / dangerous reptile keeping by folks who should have known better !
Best Regards John Z
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