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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by Rob_Carmichael on August 22, 2008
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I'll keep my strong opinions to myself and probably should have done that - it just amuses me (read that as "concerns me") when I read some of the profiles where folks are 16 and say they've been working with venomous since they were 4...yes, I know, definitely an exageration but you get the idea. I work with young people every day - mentor them, talk to them, guide them and lead them...it's a big part of why I do what I do as a professional herp person. Many young folks on this forum have exhibited a high level of maturity and that's always refreshing to see - it has actually gotten a lot better from previous years. Some of the kids who grew up at my nature center are now in graduate school studying herpetology and doing amazing field work. But, I also believe that younger people shouldn't rush into buying a venomous snake. I would still love to see an organized system like falconry in motion that would allow the venomous community to do things the right way - it would sure weed out a lot of people and put us into a much more respectable situation....I'm digressing so I'll get back on topic:
I agree with John, keeping multiple species like a gaboon and a mamba is a disaster in the making. Many of today's traveling exhibits showcase venomoids - I wonder if that's what Smithsonian used.
An AZA accredited zoo once exhibited a red spitter, gaboon, rhino and some an arboreal viper that I'm drawing a blank on in the same cage. I couldn't even imagine how that would be serviced on a regular basis w/out a lot of potential for danger to both the keeper and the animals.
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by tj on August 22, 2008
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"What is amazing, is that we have tons of gruesome photos on this site of just how much damage a venomous snakebite can do, and you would think that would scare folks into being more carefull, but in the real world, that rarely happens."
Here's what I find more amazing...ever notice most people who have been bitten have been bitten more than once? I have. Kinda kills the theory of being more careful, not even from seeing pictures, but from being bitten firsthand.
"It is just frustrating to me when, time and time again, a couple of individuals here are so quick to label all young keepers as being complacent, reckless, or incompetent."
I've been one to have had those feelings many years ago. Not so much incompetence, but more of what will happen to a 16 year old and their parents if they were to take a bite.
I remember this young punk named Joe Switalski that was keeping some extremely venomous snakes at a young age. I used to ride him about it, simply because of the minor label. He actually had his 1000 hours at a very young age, and is now one of the most competent and safe handlers I've seen...and he's still a young kid. BTW, that young punk I are very good friends, and he's someone that I have learned from over the years. Having age and experience doesn't mean that you can't learn from someone who is younger than you. Some have experiences that you don't and can learn from them, and vice versa. I actually helped him learn how to tie his shoes. ; )
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by FSB on August 22, 2008
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Cro, that's an interesting point you raise about complacency a few posts back... I wish there were such statistics, but unless keepers are willing to come forward and admit to being bitten (and few are), it would be hard to prove. In my younger days I know I was much more willing to take chances (you think you're immortal in your 20s), whether driving, handling snakes or swimming in a known hippo and crocodile habitat. I'd say that there's a possibility that such willingness to take risks might balance out the potential complacency of the older set. Also, it definitely takes years to really be able to "read" a snake, to intuite what kind of mood it's in, and to understand just what it's capable of doing (body mechanics).
I’ve really agonized over posting this, since it’s something I’d much rather keep to myself, but if anyone can possibly learn from my mistakes, so much the better.
I've only had one real close call, and I force myself to remember it every single day. It was only a couple of years ago, right after I had lucked into a fine deal on a group of 22 venomous snakes. It involved two small rattlesnakes sharing a cage, since I was crunched for space in my quarantine room, so it’s also apropos to this thread. They were all acclimating very well, and after several days I began feeding everyone. Everything was going well, and the last to get fed were these two juvenile rattlesnakes, a tiny, feisty timber and a slightly-larger canebrake.
By that time it was getting late and I was getting tired, but everyone else had been fed and I already had these two last mice thawed and ready to go, so I broke the first of several personal rules that came into play that night: Never work with venomous snakes if you are tired and fatigued.
Here's where the complacency thing comes into play.... all of the other snakes I had just fed were larger and potentially more dangerous types, such as gaboons, rhinos and larger rattlesnakes. Rule #2: Never underestimate a small venomous snake just because of its size. If there's any reason small venomous snakes can be more dangerous, it is precisely because of the potential to underestimate them. Plus, younger, smaller snakes tend to be more defensive since everything is so much larger and more threatening to them.
Rule #3: Take extra precautions when working with new acquisitions with whom you are not yet familiar. And rule #4: avoid housing more than one venomous snake to a cage unless there's a good reason for it (see previous posts).
Using 12" tongs, I offered the first hopper to the timber, but it slipped from the tongs ( a combination of my fatigue and Murphy’s Law here), and promptly rolled down into a crack between a rock and the side of the cage where it would be difficult for either snake to grasp. I was more concerned with the little timber, who was much more active and nervous, while farther back in the cage, in a quiet resting coil, lay the canebrake, who seemed utterly placid and calm, so my attention was focused more on the timber, who was moving all around and buzzing its tiny rattle.
As I reached for the mouse with the tongs, keeping a watchful eye on the timber, I suddenly felt a light jab to the joint of my thumb. To my horror, I realized that my hand had dropped within range of the canebrake, and that I had been nailed. What an indescribable feeling. After years of shrugging off all sorts of bites from non-venomous snakes as non-events, this was truly a different story. My mind began to race with consequences and disbelief. Did that really just happen? How the hell could I be so stupid?!! Visions of $20,000 medical bills appeared in my mind, but my worst fear was of losing my collection and the right to keep and work with venomous snakes (I was still married at the time). Non-snake people can go ahead and think I'm crazy, but working with and studying snakes is actually what keeps me sane in an insane world, and I view it as my own personal "pursuit of happiness."
Snakes are my first love, and have excited and fascinated me longer than I can remember. The ability to study them and learn firsthand from them is to me a birth-right. Life would be dull and meaningless without snakes! I can't imagine what it would be like to be one of those poor people in the vast majority who drive by haunting, primeval swamplands on their way to the beach and view them disdainfully as being an uninhabitable waste of real estate. To me, they have always been paradises, full of snakes, alligators, ospreys and other wonderful things!
I sat down and examined my thumb with a sinking heart. Two tiny holes in the joint were oozing blood. No mistake... a classic "venomous" bite-mark, right out of the textbooks. Yet there was no pain, other than a slight prick like a non-venomous bite. A dry bite? Dare I hope? Perhaps the pain hadn't begun yet, but that ran counter to all accounts I had heard or read of rattlesnake envenomations. I took out my notebook and in a shaky hand recorded the time of the bite and then got ready to write down the symptoms as they occurred. Nothing happened. Fifteen, then twenty minutes passed and still no pain. I thought I felt a stiffness developing in my upper arm, but I still don't know if I was imagining that or not. There was a very slight amount of bluish discoloration developing around the bite after a half an hour, but still no pain or burning sensation. The hospital was just up the hill, so I decided that the second I felt anything for real, I would drive up there. Meanwhile, I kept taking notes. After enduring what was possibly the hairiest hour and a half of my life, I finally concluded that it was indeed a dry bite, and fell to my knees in profuse thanks to God and all the Heavenly Host and the Great Spirit and anyone else who had anything to do with it. It is also possible that, since the bite landed on the hard joint of my thumb, it had simply not been possible for the fangs to penetrate deeply enough to inject anything.
At any rate, I will never part with that little snake (who is not so little anymore), as he not only spared me that night, but has probably saved my life ever since by providing me with a close call that I can never forget. There is nothing to compare with that cold feeling of dread that one feels after being tagged by a venomous snake, dry bite or not. I then sat down and wrote out the above rules that I had violated, and have kept them all close to my heart ever since.
One more thing is that I had previously been working primarily with timbers for quite some time, and this was the first canebrake I’d had in my collection in many years. They may be genetically identical, but their personalities definitely differ. I am sure that canebrakes, as a rule, are quicker to strike with no warning whatsoever, and even Bill Haast once mentioned that the canebrake was the snake he was most wary of. It is interesting to note that grizzly bears and coastal Kodiak brown bears are also genetically identical, but are nonetheless easily distinguished from one another, live in different habitats and have different personalities.
That said, in the time I have spent agonizing over posting this, some very interesting new posts have been added, particularly Rob’s and tj’s. I have no doubt that Rob is every bit as interested and qualified as anyone in mentoring young herpetophiles, and let’s face it, everyone needs guidance, particularly in such a potentially hazardous field. But we also need to do whatever we can to promote a responsible, informed approach. I really like his idea of establishing a progressive, organized system such as the one used in training falconers, since the keeping of venomous snakes needs to be taken in progressive steps, like any fine art. Putting the cart before the horse might lead to failure and frustration in music or falconry, but can have far more dire consequences in our field. Realistically, one should not try to work with eagles before he or she has mastered kestrels, and one shouldn’t try to play an advanced piece of music until he or she has mastered the simpler ones. Similarly, I’d say copperheads need to come before cobras… way before! I don’t see any reason why we couldn’t get together here and devise a program such as the one Rob suggests that would give seriously-interested young people a path to follow that could increase their chances for success and provide an alternative to the shadowy trial and error approach, when there is so little room for error. Plus, as Rob notes, such an organized effort might really help lend more respectability and credibility to an important field that average people think is totally crack-pot. I also agree wholeheartedly with tj that you can learn something from anyone, and hopefully someone else will learn from my mistakes here. Don't take short-cuts. Take that extra minute to use a shield or divider when reaching for that water dish or shed skin. And if you have to sacrifice a thawed mouse to your snapping turtle because you're just too tired to feed it to your rattlesnake, well, a mouse is a hell of a lot cheaper than a bite.
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by theemojohnm on August 22, 2008
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Wow... Maybe the last few posts (Tj, Robs, and Fred’s) right there prove what kind of outlook the older keepers have for this hobby. I share all of the same ideals, but can honestly say that no other younger keeper I have met my age (and even a bit older) could put those points across (or even "grasp" them) quite like these last few posters. I truly feel at home on this forum. =) You are all great people here. What could have turned ugly quick turned into a very constructive debate, and that’s what these forums should be about right?
I have kept numerous species of many genus, and probably too many too early for the time that I had them.
I do NOT feel "invincible" by any means, and look forward to how far I still have to come in this field!
Rob: I understand your side of the argument completely, and have seen ALMOST ALL the young keepers display the attitude you describe. I still agree with John however that NOT ALL young keepers should be "lumped" into this category. I DID catch my first Northern Copperhead at age 6, and I kept it to... Pretty stupid? YOU BET! And I am not proud of that fact. My mom has pictures but they will not see the light of day. So... as far as "keeping" venomous, I technically have been for 10 years at age 16. But, I never got into more exotic species, or kept consecutively until about 13 (WHICH WAS STILL TOO YOUNG). However, the maturity factor has MUCH to do with it, as I always found it hard to really make any deep long-lasting friendships because of the lack of maturity I found in most of the other kids my age..and unfortunately.. still do. I have met alot of younger herp keepers online from PA, who brag and boast about keeping HOTS, and when I finally meet them in person (shows, herp trips) it is in all actuality, their fathers who keep the venomous animals. I have never become good friends with these keepers, but have some lasting friendships with their fathers (most DOUBLE my age). =)
I never found the suitable mentor that I STILL feel everyone should when beginning this hobby (at least taking something home). I had to learn from trial and error, and thank god it didn’t cost me my existence! It was a difficult road. Books cannot replace firsthand experience (which I never had). I knew and still know plenty of potential mentors who, even to a kid at age 11, obviously were less responsible and knowledgeable than me. (Not all older keepers do thing right either). I STILL am in search for a mentor, and have some decent leads now. Its not an urgent quest, because I am more than able to keep what I do now, but I am in the process of expanding my snake room, and soon wish to acquire some species I've never worked with before. I will not do that until I can talk and work with someone who knows what they are doing, that has kept similar species.
Thank you for posting! I just urge that you and anyone else does not disregard what advice or experience any young keeper may have based on their age. But, I guess its not to hard to "read" someone who shouldn’t be doing this after 6 or 7 posts.
Thanks! =)
Tj: That was probably THE single best post I've seen on ANY forum in a long time, and proves alot of my points. I hover, do NOT feel that after seeing a few discover channel episodes, ANY young kid should go out and purchase ANY HOT animal. And I certainly think that - if you cant find a mentor, you probably shouldn’t purchase a HOT. (Something I was TOO YOUNG to realize at that time). It is doable without, but at the ultimate risk. But, your account of Joe, proves the basic message I hope many of the older keepers can embrace to some extent. PROPERLY keeping venomous animals was admittedly, not the way I started. I thank god I never even had a close call and am still here. Now, I am fairly adept to keep what I do, but it was a very risky road that could have cost me too much.
Fred: WOW! Scary scenario! I could not imagine what I would have done in your position. I am glad your still with us, with no missing limbs or digits due to that bite! Everyone has made VERY good points in this thread (even though it became so far off topic). I agree that young keepers should find a suitable mentor for sure! I am not ashamed for not. I realize it was a HUGE risk to enter the hobby the way I did, potentially doomed from the start, but I'm ok now, doing even more of my "homework", and doing things right, and have been more seriously for quite some time now.
I just wish that not EVERY young keeper was lumped into the immature/know it all/think their invincible category.
On that note (now that my ENTIRE history is out there LOL), I am officially withdrawing from this debate while it is still a constructive one. I feel I am on a good enough path in this hobby now, so who knows, when I BECOME as old as some of you guys some day...maybe I'll be the next W.W. ! LOL. (had to through the humor in there =) ).
Hopefully, as long as this organization exists, I'll be here. So maybe I will still be chatting with you guys when I'm in my 40's..
I must say, solely relating to the HOT field, this is the most understanding, open-minded, and knowledgeable forum I've come across.
Thank You All & Take Care,
~John.
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by theemojohnm on August 23, 2008
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In my second paragraph to Rob, I meant to post that everyone should find a suitable mentor BEFORE taking somthing home.. ;)
~John.
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by Rob_Carmichael on August 23, 2008
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This is a terrific bunch of folks here - that's why I spend more time on this forum than the others I contribute to. I've learned a lot over the years and even though I've been doing this professionally for a long time I'm still learning something new every day. Many folks on this forum have been instrumentala in helping me and as long as we keep things civil, which we usually do, even heated topics can be debated with great respect.
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by FSB on August 24, 2008
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Well, John, I hope we're still here chatting with you when you're in your 40's too (at least, I guess I hope so! We might be repeating ourselves a lot more than usual by then...). Anyway, I have to say it's kinda strange being called an "older keeper," not that I take offense at all - quite the opposite - yet when I was coming along, it just seemed like everyone else was older than ME... I was always "the kid." Now all of a sudden... well, let's just say it's funny how things can turn around before you even notice. Suffice it to say, I don't feel any older, and bet I can still wear anybody out walking up and down these mountains around here!
And Rob, please do not keep your strong opinions to yourself! I want to hear them. Strong informed opinions indicate that one cares passionately for something, and the world could use a lot more people who care passionately about something other than themselves. That's why I like this forum so much... anyone of any age or level who really cares about snakes is just allright with me. Even if we occasionally disagree about some technicality or another, we're all still basically on the same (web) page.
Anyone who is threatened by hearing a different opinion has some work to do (in my opinion).
And strong UNinformed opinions (e.g. "the only good snake is a dead snake") are obviously just a minor pain in the cloaca, so to heck with them.
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RE: Feeding multiple rattlers
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by LadyBloodRose on August 25, 2008
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"Anyone who is threatened by hearing a different opinion has some work to do (in my opinion). "
Amen to that!!!
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RE: Feeding multiple ...PYTHONS!
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by FSB on August 25, 2008
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John M... re. a statement you made in an earlier post that older keepers can make stupid mistakes too... well, absolutely! One story that was related to me long ago by Bela Demeter, curator of reptiles at the National Zoo, involved an older guy who went to feed two very large burmese pythons that were housed in the same cage. He carried two large rabbits with him, and in order to free up a hand so he could open the cage he... guess what?... stuffed one of the rabbits under his chin. When he lifted the lid, one of the snakes shot out and grabbed the rabbit that was under the his chin and, well, did what big pythons do. Venomous snakes aren't the only potentially deadly ones.
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RE: Feeding multiple ...PYTHONS!
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by puffadder7 on August 25, 2008
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its been a while since i posted but im glad we are trying to support each other but seriously, feeding multiple rattlers,its more like feeding multiple aguments, anyway we have all stated some people can be very stupid young and old even when it comes to non venomous anyway thats it, arin
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