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RE: DSE seizes illegal corn snakes from home of Su
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by Buzztail1 on May 1, 2009
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Z,
I am often confused as to why I am so easy to misunderstand.
Yes, Burmese Pythons have been witnessed breeding in the Everglades. There are projects underway involving tracking males to females to manage the removal of eggs. By radio tracking the males - they can find the females and thus attempt to control the population.
So far, every single invasive issue in the US is "localized" by something (freeze line/waterway boundaries/etc). The fact that an animal/organism can only destroy a local ecosystem does not make it any less invasive or dangerous.
As I said before, the fact that folks, who write the news, get their facts wrong about the native habitat of any snake - native or not - is nothing new or spectacular. US writers often make the same mistakes about snakes that can be found in their very own neighborhoods.
"Some bitten infants require hospitalization and intensive care, at an estimated total cost of $25,000 per year" is sensationalism at its best. The hospital bill for ONE rattlesnake bite is most often much more than $25,000.
And lastly, but most important from my standpoint:
"PS: Karl, no need to get personal and attack, you are a civilian now, and I am a woman (do not atatck) ;-)
And NO, I never visited Guam, I visited Hawaiian islands many tiems.
Z
Karl wrote: << think that your passion to negate everything that AR stands for blinds you to some very real problems. >> "
I DID NOT ATTACK YOU, personally or otherwise.
I have not treated you in any special way because you are a woman. I am passionate about many of my beliefs and the mere use of passion in a sentence has nothing to do with gender. There are many people who visit Guam who are not military - it is an excellent place to go diving and is a tropical island paradise (except of course for those pesky snakes). I enjoyed my visits to Guam every bit as much as my visits to Hawaii. And finally, I have no idea what my being civilian has to do with anything at all. My beliefs did not change because of the uniform I used to wear or the one I wear now.
If you feel I attacked you, I am sorry. I am trying to point out that there is more than one way to look at all of this.
Do I think HR669 was a good thing?
No.
Do I think Australia's laws against non-indigenous wildlife are a good thing?
Yes, I do.
R/
Karl
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RE: DSE seizes illegal corn snakes from home of Su
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by Cro on May 1, 2009
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I think this has been an interesting discussion between Karl and Zuzana, who have somewhat different ideas on this issue.
But, I will have to agree that everything said by Karl was in no way any sort of personal attack against Zuzana. I have re-read the thread several times, and do not see anything that could be considered an attack, just disagreement on some parts of the topic.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: DSE seizes illegal corn snakes from home of Su
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by tigers9 on May 1, 2009
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Maybe attack wasn’t the correct word. But since Karl asked, and since this is not the first ‘friction’ Karl and me have been thru, (so i might be more on mo toes with him),I will just answer his question regarding what I had in mind truthfully and no sugar coating:
Seems to me (my personal opinion) that at times Karl enjoys being a prick or A..hole, so I wonder if civilian life is too boring for him and if he misses the excitement of navy/military life, this is not meant to be an attack, just something I have been wondering about and since Karl asked for my exlanation, I answered truthfully.
And I agree the medical cost in Guam regarding brown snake is small and sensationalized in that paper/study, however our enemies are using it since it affects kids, and anytime the political says the magic word KID, the bans seem ok, since it is to supposedly protects the kid, never mind overall some parents are the worst kid abusers (insert sarcasm)
Z
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RE: DSE seizes illegal corn snakes from home of Su
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by Cro on May 1, 2009
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As far as Guam, that is an unfortunate situation.
The brown tree snake became established there, and because of the tropical climate, and lack of natural predators, thrived, and pretty much destroyed the native bird population, which had no way to deal with a highly arboreal predator.
In a way, that is probably self limiting, as once they run out of birds, the tree snake populations will become smaller.
If strict quarinteen had been in place, much as Hawaii now does, the animals would not have been established there. However, that started back during war times, when many cargo planes were landing there, and the military had better things to do than search each crate for hitch-hiking Boiga.
I actually had a Brown Tree Snake back in the early 1970's, and it was a very cool snake to keep.
However, the invasion of Brown Tree Snakes in Guam is indeed a Local Problem, and should not be addressed by a omnibus bill like HB 669. It is a State issue, but probably needs some Military and Federal help.
On an interesting side note, the US Military offered my friend Okefenokee Joe $1,000,000.00 many years ago, if he could find a way to get rid of the Brown Tree Snakes in Guam. We had several discussions on the topic, and I came up with the idea that if we could envelope the entire island of Guam in some kind of controlled fog, and if we could drop the temperature there to below freezing for even a few hours, that the tropical tree snakes would all be killed. And the birds and mammals would probably survive a very cold night. How to freeze a whole island, well, we did not quite figgure that part out yet.
As far as the Burmese Pythons, well, that is another State Issue. Something that Florida has to deal with, and perhaps get some Federal help with. But, again, it should not require the passage of a Federal bill like 669.
That one is actually much easier to solve. I have proposed a Bounty be paid on Burmese Pythons of $100.00 each, and allowing folks to hunt them in the Everglades, as long as they purchase a $10.00 hunting liscense. Then tourists can hunt them to bring back a skin for their trophy rooms. And the Native Americans down there can hunt them for extra cash. And the local rednecks can hunt them also, and make extra cash. In a couple of years, a Bounty would cause the extinction of Burmese Pythons in the Everglades. It worked in eliminating the wolf, and the cougar, and the timber rattlesnake. And a Bounty system will work again, if any of the folks in Florida really want to get rid of the problem. Overall, it would be very inexpensive to solve the problem, but the pythons would have to be frozen, they could not be carted off to other states for pets. The same Bounty system could help get rid of other invasive animals in Florida. There are plenty of 13 year old kids out there with air rifles who could make a good livng rounding up feral cats, excess Iguana Lizards, Cuban treefrogs, etc. And the animals would not have to go to waste, they could be turned into some sort of protien powder (shades of Soilent Green) that could be added to animal feed, or even shipped off to third world countries as a human food.
Just set up a bunch of pay stations for folks to bring the bounty animals to, then pay them in cash. Would kind of be like the collecting of coke bottles we did as kids, to earn the deposit money.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: DSE seizes illegal corn snakes from home of Su
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by Cro on May 1, 2009
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And just for the record, the USFWS and the "research" scientists will never let my Bounty System solve the Burmese Python "problem" in the Everglades.
That is because the problem would be solved in less than 2 years for a cost of less than one million dollars.
If "they" let the "problem" continue, they can milk the Federal Government for Grant Money for years, and years, and years. Over time, they will take in tens of millions of dollars, and go out there and use radio tracking devices to trace male Burmese Pythons back to females. Then they will count eggs, and do studies on how many eggs hatch, then how many of the neonates survive, etc, etc, usw....... You Obama tax money at work, LOL. Tons of work for undergrad students for years to come ! If they really wanted to rid the area of Burmese Pytons, it could easily be done.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: DSE seizes illegal corn snakes from home of Su
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by Buzztail1 on May 2, 2009
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That is just too sweet.
"Don't attack me - don't attack me ..."
"Seems to me (my personal opinion) that at times Karl enjoys being a prick or A..hole, so I wonder if civilian life is too boring for him and if he misses the excitement of navy/military life,"
For the record, which can be verified through offline communication with Chris if you desire - I do not like confrontation. I also do not like one sided slanted information which has been the source of much of our friction.
"the excitement of navy/military life"?
Sorry, but you clearly have no concept of what that life was like.
I now work, every day, with cobras, rattlesnakes, bushmasters, alligators, crocodiles, etc. My life is far from boring or unexciting. Excitment is not what I would call politely disagreeing with someone on the internet. Stressfull is what I call dealing with the name calling that things so often devolve to in these forums.
Too sad that you feel that way about our exchanges.
Too bad that you share that opinion of me with other people who have never met me, just as you haven't. Funny that they feel free to let me know about how I have been unpleasant to you and that makes me a bad person. If you ever get the chance to meet me, you will find that I talk in person, just as I "talk" online. That is why among all the posts here and other places I post, you will find my name attached to what I post. I stand by what I say...I say what I believe...and I show up in public so that people can discuss our disagreements face-to-face.
If I am such a disagreeable person with so much time on my hands, maybe you could tell our fine readers how many times I have come onto your website and called you unpleasant names or posted things that you disagree with?
Calling me names and saying that I only disagree with you because I am bored will not cow me into agreeing with you.
I have been to Hawaii and Guam and lots of other places in the world. I have seen, first-hand, that there are situations where a ban on the importation of exotics is necessary and useful. Again, I DO NOT support HR669 BECAUSE it is a blanket law designed by the AR activists and has nothing to do with the science of whether an animal would be invasive or harmful.
R/
Karl
PS Calling someone names and then saying it's not an attack - doesn't make it not an attack. You could have taken the time to say what you had to say without the name calling. That still makes it personal and an attack. KHB
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RE: DSE seizes illegal corn snakes from home of Su
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by Chance on May 2, 2009
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Interesting idea John, but I'm afraid it would never work. Why? Simple: the IRS. That bounty money would be considered earned income and the people who collect it would need to report it on their taxes. Because probably 99% of them would not report it, the gov't would never go for just handing out cash freely like that.
Good thought though! I do wonder how successful such a program would be, since the burms would be harder to collect than wolves and likely have a higher population density.
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RE: DSE seizes illegal corn snakes from home of Su
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by Cro on May 2, 2009
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Chance, I think we could solve that. I know folks would not want to report the income, however, we just require them to produce ID when they come in to collect a bounty. That way, the IRS gets the list it wants. The deal could even be sweetened by Florida exempting bounty money from State Tax.
Even better, lets get rid of the IRS, once and for all.
Right now, 51% of the American People favor doing that, and support the Tea Parties that have taken place to protest taxes.
This is largly because the average American sees Trillions of their hard earned money being used by the government to bail out all of the wall street fat cats, dishonest bankers, poorly run car companies, big insurance companies, etc, etc, etc. Very little of that money has made its way to the common man.
It is time for a grass roots program that takes the Tea Parties, and adds the 15% of the folks who are still undecided, and creates a Flat Tax, that does away with the IRS once and for all.
Did you know that the IRS Tax Code is over 700,000 pages of rules and regulations and government crap now ? All written by lawyer poletitions.
With 51% of Americans supporting tax reform, we should be making one of the largest changes in the government that the country has ever seen.
A flat tax would tax the money that you spend. Simple as that. If you buy a lot of stuff, you will pay more tax to the government. If you dont spend much, you will pay less tax to the government. And you will take home your Full pay check, without any government witholding for taxes. It would take a lot of the power from the government, whould help the country as a whole.
Origiginally, this country was set up for the individual States to run their own affairs, and the Federal Government was supposed to be for the protection of the borders and little else. Instead, the Federal Government has become a Trillion pound Jabba the Hutt.
While we have that 51% who want government tax change, we should be starting the efforts that will have a real million man march on Washington. All angry tax payers who are fed up of government waste.
And that way, the kids who collect those Burmese Pythons for the Bounty will not have to pay taxes on the money they earn, LOL !
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: DSE seizes illegal corn snakes from home of Su
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by tigers9 on May 2, 2009
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Karl wrote:For the record, which can be verified through offline communication with Chris if you desire - I do not like confrontation. I also do not like one sided slanted information which has been the source of much of our friction.
"the excitement of navy/military life"? Sorry, but you clearly have no concept of what that life was like.
Z reply: Wow, I was never accused of posting one sided information, go thru archives and see that I post all info form many sources, that goes form being the one who posted the ‘Broken screen’ reports info on which HR669 bill is based, I post AR/HSUS pres releases for info, and I also post my opinion, who am I censoring or editing out? I present all info and then do my personal comment, where is that one sided, am I supposed to be two faced or fence straddler? Yes, u r correct, I have no personal experience with military life. My fiancee Scott is ex military, he retired in 2000 after being in the field in Albania and Kosovo. Many of his friends have similar background. Many of my local friends were in military, one of them happens to be exotic cat owner with only one arm, he lost another one in tank incident. My stepdad was a very high ranking officer in Czechoslovakia army, but he didn’t raise me, but he is now my family.
Karl wrote: I now work, every day, with cobras, rattlesnakes, bushmasters, alligators, crocodiles, etc. My life is far from boring or unexciting. Excitment is not what I would call politely disagreeing with someone on the internet. Stressfull is what I call dealing with the name calling that things so often devolve to in these forums.
Z reply: there are different kinds of excitements. Few years ago I used to take my Dodge Viper for lessons on the track, and ride my Ninja or dirt bike few times per week or jet ski on lake mead. It was exciting, lately I don’t have tome for that, too busy with my animals and fighting legislation, animals are exciting , but it is different kind of excitement than driving the Viper on the race track and not have to worry about the police.
Karl wrote:Too sad that you feel that way about our exchanges.
Too bad that you share that opinion of me with other people who have never met me, just as you haven't. Funny that they feel free to let me know about how I have been unpleasant to you and that makes me a bad person. If you ever get the chance to meet me, you will find that I talk in person, just as I "talk" online. That is why among all the posts here and other places I post, you will find my name attached to what I post. I stand by what I say...I say what I believe...and I show up in public so that people can discuss our disagreements face-to-face.
Z reply: I do show up in person in exotic cat conventions, I used to go to herp conventions years ago when I lived in CA. I know few local herpers in person. I am not hiding form face to face. If you ever come to Vegas, feel free to contact me so we can work it out face to face, ands I will leave my cats and guns at home;-)
Karl wrote:If I am such a disagreeable person with so much time on my hands, maybe you could tell our fine readers how many times I have come onto your website and called you unpleasant names or posted things that you disagree with?
Calling me names and saying that I only disagree with you because I am bored will not cow me into agreeing with you.
Z reply: Maybe you should join REXANO yahoo list, just stay on web based version as it gets busy at times, and go thru archives and see how much personal attacks I put up with without censorign/moderating /attacking people.
Kar wrote:I have been to Hawaii and Guam and lots of other places in the world. I have seen, first-hand, that there are situations where a ban on the importation of exotics is necessary and useful. Again, I DO NOT support HR669 BECAUSE it is a blanket law designed by the AR activists and has nothing to do with the science of whether an animal would be invasive or harmful.
Z reply: yes, but these bans are on the local/state level and should stay that way.HR 669 is like having same building code all over USA, makes no sense, as in some areas you worry about quakes but not snow or hurricanes, so ok, we agree, HR 669 sucks.
Karl wrote:R/
Karl
PS Calling someone names and then saying it's not an attack - doesn't make it not an attack. You could have taken the time to say what you had to say without the name calling. That still makes it personal and an attack. KHB
Z reply: yes, I could have but choose not to. Not sugar coating is my way of communicating. And at times i am still holing back.
Z
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RE: DSE seizes illegal corn snakes from home of Su
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by Chance on May 2, 2009
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Hah, thanks for the detailed response. I can't say I agree with getting rid of a large portion of gov't revenue (both state and federal), because afterall, we can't completely cut taxes and keep spending billions on a war that seems it'll never end. And from a purely selfish point of view, as a public educator, my income depends on taxes. Public schools depend on taxes collected from the local community as well as support from the state. Roads, interstates, bridges, police, fire fighters, etc. all rely on taxes for improvement or income. So taxes are, unfortunately, a necessary evil.
I have an idea though! Much along the lines of Gene Roddenberry's future view as presented on the various Star Treks, let's just get rid of money! People can work to better themselves and their communities, and there would be no need for money. If you need or want something, you go get it. Of course there are all kinds of logistical problems with this idea right now because of greed and laziness, but hey, a man can dream right? Money is becoming less and less tangible anyway. I rarely see cash, all my money is just numbers in a bank's computer system. (Scary thought?! "This program has performed an illegal operation and you will be bankrupt" Hopefully it's not a Microsoft system...lol) I think a lot of humanity's problems would be solved if we didn't have to worry about money.
But I digress. To get back on topic, what you propose as a bounty on the burms would probably work. And if there was a flat tax on the income, the $100 bounty could be taxed immediately upon distribution and filed away against that person's SSN (which would mean that minors would probably be ineligible, sucks for them). It would still be a $100 bounty but taxed at 15% or whatever, the payout would be $85 per snake, and no worries about filing later. Still a pretty damn good deal getting paid to herp! And if burms are really as big of a problem as some people are implying, that could be a significant source of supplemental income for some really dedicated herpers. Heck, it could even pay for the vacation to FL in the first place! And the touristy aspect would bring revenue to the FL! Hmm, you may really be on to something.
I completely agree though that any snakes 'bagged' and presented for the bounty would need to be euthanized on the spot. No "Well, I think I want a burm as a pet so I'm going to take this nasty tempered thing home and try to tame it." This would probably cause a lot of problems by itself. Many herpers are loathe to get rid of the critters they've collected in the field. It would be a necessary evil though and any check stations would need freezers or whatever on hand to do the task right then and there. Generally I'm completely against killing innocent animals, but when it comes to introduced species that wreak havoc with what evolution has spent the last several million years honing (including feral cats!), I have little mercy.
It's really a shame that as many positive aspects as there would be for such a program, it would very likely never be approved by the powers that be. I don't think you can even legally go into the Everglades right now and collect burms can you? Ridiculous...
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