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RE: LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF IMMUZATION OF SNAKE VENO
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by spanky on April 11, 2003
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I am looking for advice on, self immuzation of snake venom, "NOT" if I sould keep hot's. Or my bite record. Bill Hasst Is my hero, and the reason he milks snakes is one, he makes more money than most of us will ever see. Two, he loves keeping, handling, and breeding venomous snakes.And three,He loves making a difference in the medical field. He has done more than any one man could for the venom trade. And his self immuzation of snake venom, is a true inspiration to us that do it. he has never been sick, taken an asprin, "or DIED" As most of you know.!! I have changed my handling of snakes, and do not free hand anymore. By free hand I mean holding a venomous snake with no tools. (OH.!!! I HAVE NEVER GOTTEN BIT FREE HANDLING ANY SNAKES) As I have siad before, Most of my bites came from tailing.(with out a hook) or pinning. But I do not practice this anymore. My handling has changed a lot. And I am free of bites. (Larn from your lessons.) I have. Please don't tell me to stop keeping hot's. I will not. I now keep snakes that would kill me in short order. Cobras. And I see it as a good thing. I know if I take any chances with them, I will pay big. So It teaches me discipline. I now have hide box's with doors. And I do not handle the snakes..... Well anyone knowing anything about self immzation please post. Thank you Spanky
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RE: LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF IMMUZATION OF SNAKE VENO
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by JRHarrison on April 11, 2003
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First off self immunization is dangerous and no doctor would risk their medical practice doing illegal human experimentation. An immune response will not be an immediate reaction to the venom, so necrosis and respiratory arrest can occur even if antibodies are present. Because of the constant exposure to proteins, allergic reactions are common in those who self immunize. Infections from injection sites, hepatitis, and other medical problems can occur when non-professionals give injections. Studies done in the past by professional herpetologists and medical personell worldwide have shown the risks outweigh the benefits. No human blood product will ever be licensed as a drug because of the pathogens involved. Encouraging others to self immunize is bordering on practicing medicine without a license and you can be liable if a lawyer gets involved.
Also, Haast has been on life support and lost tissue due to bites. His blood was used over 40 years ago, and never since. The individual was bitten by a krait at the old snake farm in Louisiana, and we now know that neurotoxic bites can often be 'ridden out' using life support if antivenom is not available. So there is no way to know if Haast's blood really contributed or not.
Those who use elapid venom to immunize may have a reduced risk of allergy early on, due to the fact the protein composition is different than viper or crotalid venom. However, the risk is still there.
There is no scientific evidence (published in peer-re viewed journal) to back up self-immunization. Haast is one example and therefore anecdotal. He is also allergic to freeze-dried venom.
As a person who handles 600-1000 snakes per week, and extracts venom for legitimate purposes (used by researchers world wide and for US antivenom), I would use self-immunization if I thought it was safe. I looked into it many years ago and all published papers said it would not work and was dangerous. Also many doctors at toxin conferences also agree it is not a good idea.
One other thing: LD50's are for mice not men. Any statistical value also has an inherent error in it. You can estimate what will kill a rodent but this has very little bearing on what may kill a human.
Best,
Jim Harrison
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RE: LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF IMMUZATION OF SNAKE VENO
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by jared on April 11, 2003
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Jim, I am familiar with you and your work in KY, but something keeps poping into my mind on this particular issue, what about other researchers like Tim Friede (Sorry to drop your name dude, but you seemed like the ideal person for this issue) who, much like Haast are doing self immunization and seem to have lots of success with it ( I dont know anyone else who can walk off a mamba bite). Again, I am not trying to rattle cages but this is an issue I am very curious about myself, thanks
Jared
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RE: LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF IMMUZATION OF SNAKE VENO
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by spanky on April 11, 2003
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I would like to add that I can no longer take anymore pit-viper venom. I am having trouble with shock now. (An allergic reaction to the venom) Time to start taking cobra venom. I have been told that it is easyer for your body to handle, In very small doses. Like I started with, with the pit-viper venom. I I'm not going to milk myself, I will buy it freeze dried. The shots I took, help a lot with the bites. I did not loss any tissue from the rattlesnake bites. Thanks Spanky
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RE: LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF IMMUZATION OF SNAKE VENO
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by biff on April 11, 2003
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Kinda seems like it'd be real difficult to tell if self-immunizing helps at all...I would think you would have to know "if" the snake injected venom, how much, and was it im, iv, etc.
I agree that professional controls would need to be used to assess if it really helps, I think Al Cruz once gave the figures for dry bites, and I was quite astonished at the high number of them.
To me it seems reasonable to shift all the time & effort needed for self immunization(SI) into safety protocols, proper handling techniques, and possibly acquiring a/v. At this point, whether self-immunizing helps is pure conjecture, but we know redirecting our efforts to safe handling, etc. would be a big plus. My personal focus is on not getting bitten. And for 2 years it's worked well!! Being prepared for the worst is good, but I'm far from convinced that SI is the ticket.
my .02
Steve
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RE: LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF IMMUZATION OF SNAKE VENO
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by JRHarrison on April 11, 2003
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Jared, All their information is subjective which means that it is not true research. True science uses statistics to back up observations. Just noticing something interesting or having one or two unusual cases means nothing when not analyzed using stats. Peer review ensures science has indeed been done. That's why I believe what I read in journals when I looked into this many years ago. When injecting venom or taking a bite we can not estimate what is going to happen because LD's are of use in mice not men. Also Tim has been in the hospital for an envenomation and used a zoo's antivenom. He also states on his website that venom turns muscle to puss. This is an infection. Just saying you do research doesn't make it so. Tim and Harold have not published in peer review. Why is this important?- because it proves what you are saying is science. Another point is that immunity is not absolute. You can still suffer severe tissue damage or death before your antibodies have time to do you any good. That's why it's called an immune response. Therefore, the benefit of such 'immunity' is slim to none. The internet is interesting; it can give a lot of information and a lot of misinformation. I have been watching this venom injection arguement for some time and decided to get involved because several young kids and teenagers have asked me about it after seeing something on the internet. Plus, keep in mind that the FDA monitors people who are doing self-experimentation, especially when they 'promote' it in some way.
I would like to restate that the benefits of self-injection are far outweighed by the risks, which include: infection, possible organ/tissue damage (both immediate and long-term), risk of allergy. Haast's health has nothing to do with snake venom; he is genetically gifted. Most others we've seen and observed usually lack muscle tone and exhibit some other sympotms as well. Keep in mind most people posting on this and other forums have not been doing this for very many years; they could be time bombs waiting to go off. Others have died along the way; some that I have known personally. (I've been around over 30 years now.) Good antivenom is available and it works when used properly. This means having it yourself so you don't have to wait for it, and having a protocol so the doctors have some guidelines. It is also a known fact that people who self-immunize tend to be careless and take too many bites. Luckily, a majority of bites are dry or sub-lethal.
Best,
Jim Harrison
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RE: LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF IMMUZATION OF SNAKE VENO
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by spanky on April 12, 2003
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JR Harrison. Hi I am enjoying your posts. And it seems you have a lot of good advice, And knowledge. Are you a professional in the med. field.? could you enlighten us in what you do for a living.? And how long you have done it.? like I have siad I now am having a allergy to pit-viper venom. I see the couse being to much venom in my systom. I do not know how elapid venom would differ as far as on your systom, from pit-vipers. If I would have the same trouble, some time down the road. (I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO ADD THAT I DO NOT RECAMIND ANYONE INJECTING SNAKE VENOM INTO THEM SELFS)It is very dangeres, and could kill you (fast) Anyway, thank all for your replys. Spanky
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RE: LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF IMMUZATION OF SNAKE VENO
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by spanky on April 12, 2003
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OH,,!!!! Are you the Jim Harrison that wrote all the books.?? I put Jim Harrison, in my web search, and "wow" Is that you.? Thank you, Spanky
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by jared on April 12, 2003
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That was very well put but again, to say that Haast is genetically gifted, and not have any stats or anything about his genetic sequence printed in peer reviewed journal then how can we know that is so as well? My point is, I have done the book learning, have my B.S. in Zoo with an emphasis in herpetology and currently getting ready to begin masters work in the field. Frankly, most of my real experience, I have built myself from experience and other herpers. I too have worked with herps for all of my life ( I am 23, I owned my first herp at 3 (Frogs) and my first snake at 6 (as I kept bringing them home in shoeboxes from the marsh) and have kept hots from all over the world, starting at 17). Again, I am not trying to bust chops on anyone, and personally I ask alot of provoking questions due to my own quest for knowledge in the matter and to see alot of different aspects from around the country. I did see the damage done by the elap bites, its a given, but to say that snake venom (or at least isolated protien complexes) has very few benefits is hard to believe. More research needs to be done on the matter, but I understanding the funding dilemmas for such works. Again, all I am trying to say is that there are 2 solid aspects to look at, the researchers who think just because its done in a lab its gospel, or the good ol boys who can take ya to stump hole city full of crots. I feel there should be a bridging of the two but both sides (as english and western riders in the equestrian industry) generally dont even listen to what the other side is saying, even if it is valid. In conclusion to this longwinded post, I dont freehandle, I dont feel a need to do it, but there are hots out there that will learn to tame down. As far as self immunization, it hurt, always did, and I neither condone or oppose those doing it, I mean science did originate from a group doing all of there experiments behind closed doors (or they would face death due to witchcraft) but I can say that if you take these risks, you and you alone are responsible for the outcome which may effect us all. I appreciate your imput on the matter Jim,
Jared
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Just had to add
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by jared on April 12, 2003
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Just because it is printed in a peer reviewed journal DOES NOT make it science, that just means someone had funding while others didnt. Science changes constantly and many things that have been printed in peer journals have later been corrected. Again, any rich kid can buy a degree, its sad, but IT DAMN SURE HAPPENS. I have seen kids with tons of cash walk right through high paid well respected universities (DUKE and UVA) and they couldnt find a cottonmouth in fl at 90%humidity and the sun blazin while sitting in a canoe. Again, degrees do say alot, and unfortunately most zoos are biased to those who dont have one or experience with an affiliated zoo. I know plenty of guys without degrees that could easily take over herp positions at mojor zoos but they can because they dont have friends on the board. Again, my point, booksmarts are good, but you can read all the herp books in the world that doesnt necessarily mean you will be able to find them when your out in the woods.
Jared
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