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RE: Just had to add
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by biff on April 12, 2003
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What Jim is saying is that there are no controls, outside of not knowing what damage the injected venom is doing you also don't know if you're immune or not...like I pointed out before....the snake may not inject any venom at all, a small amount, medium, or copious amounts...thus determining the severity of reaction.
so to say that you were bitten and didn't require hospitalization really doesn't show anything. I know of a guy who was bitten on the index finger (r) by a puff adder, he didn't go to the hospital and just had swelling of his hand, wrist, and lymph nodes. In a day and a half he was fine. He didn't SI, if he did he could say he didn't require hospitalization because of the SI, which isn't true at all.
It looks like a real pain in the rear to SI, in addition to the injections themselves the guys look like they are having major reactions to what they are injecting...which would be ok (maybe) if you knew FOR SURE that you were immune, but you just don't have that security.
Steve
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Zoos, research, etc
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by JRHarrison on April 12, 2003
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Spanky and Jared,
I am not the Jim Harrison who wrote all the books. I run the Kentucky Reptile Zoo in Slade, KY. We are a non-profit organization. We house approx. 1100 snakes of about 100 species, and provide venoms of 37 species to researchers and the medical community. We also have an exhibit open to the public and provide educational lectures to schools and other groups. You can look at our website if you want: www.geocities.com/kentuckyreptilezoo. I personally do not have a degree, however all those who work for me either have one or are working towards it. I always encourage people to get thier degrees. While it is true you don't learn how to handle animals in school, a degree is necessary in the world today. There are a *lot* of people who want to work with animals and having a degree means you at least did some work. Most zoos require some practical experience as well (why we and others offer internships) because they know you can't learn all you need to in school; it's just a starting point. However, I personally think you can't be too educated.
You are right about the nature of scientific revolutions; new and suprizing discoveries are generally greeted with skepticism at least and downright hostility at most. However, there are some points I may not have made clear before. First, immunization research has already been done. It is not new. It was tried as a way to combat bites in some third world areas where av was hard to get. A couple of extrememly well respected doctors did this work. I believe their research because it was peer reviewed and because other work they did was high quality. Drs. Minton, Russell, Hardy, and others are some of the best venom researchers ever. We really need to be educated about the history of toxicology and herpetology. (Maybe try the library plus the internet when you search.) Second, it's also true that some papers that are published are bad. You have to read everything critically. However, peer review is the only process we have that has a chance of eliminating the 'bad' science. It's not fullproof, but it is far better than nothing, and the vast majority of peer-reviewed work is good. Yes, science is about change, and about being open to change. But it can only change when true science has been done, which means controlled experiments, not anecdotal evidence. You are right, we can't know Haast's genetic makeup without seeing it, but that is a far more likely explanation than the venom. There are people who smoke and drink and live to be 100, but you wouldn't attribute their age to the cigarettes.
Science is always best when practiced in the light of day and in the open for all to see. That way constructive critisicm can be given and recieved.
I also think we are practicing hubris if we think that anything we do is like a major scientific revolution. I of course hope that the venoms that I provide may one day be a cure for some terrible disease. However, we are a very small corner of the world, and it is unlikely that anything we do will have such a large impact, though I guess the possibility always exists.
One word about zoos: politics exists in every institution, no matter how big or small. I know there are good animal people who are not involved with zoos. We are not an AZA institution, we can't afford it. But, AZA has gone to great lengths to ensure the best possible wellfare and quality of life for the animals that AZA accredited institutions house. They are trying to have guidelines that ensure this, and one of them is requiring their workers have biology or related degrees. This is just one measure they can take to help reach their goals. I understand why they do this, even though it may limit their applicant pool to a degree.
Best,
Jim Harrison
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Thanks again Jim,
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by jared on April 12, 2003
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I was aware it was you, As I said I have read about your zoo and that large cape you have, along with some others. I do agree in todays world a degree is necessary, it is just the system and as with the AZA there is politics in everything (Though the AZA is pretty ruthless with theres). I did not know that alot of research had been done on the subject, and thats why I am so intrigued about it.
Jared
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RE: No I stopped about a year
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by Hotherps on April 13, 2003
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There is a quite a difference between the immunisation of tribal people in order to give them a measure of protection from snakebite and the self-immunization of individuals working with a venomous collection.
There is a considerable risk that a person could become highly sensitised to venom and therefore effectively end any career working with venomous snakes.
Having immunity from the effects of snakebite would be very nice but any bite would still (in my case) be a “reportable accident” and the s##t would still hit the fan. I wonder how many liberties a person would take (setting bad examples) if they thought they were immune ?
I have been hospitalised 3 times (and required antivenom), on average once every five years, or one every 250,000 handlings / cage cleanings and tens of 1000’s of venom extractions……….I know people who have spent a fraction of the time I spend working with venomous snakes, yet have racked up ten times as many bites.
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RE: No I stopped about a year
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by spanky on April 13, 2003
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Good day hotherps, I looked up your profile on SHHS, you have a lot of experence with hot's, and alike. But I really do not see any difference between giving a tribal person, a venom shot to help protect him, from me taking one to help protect me. Antevinin is not an option for me. I have to say though After one year, I now have a bad reation to rattlesnake venom, (shock) even small doses. Would I be the same way with elapid venom.? That is does elapid venom do the same things after time.? And would the newer goat sera work for me.? (With elapids) I do not keep rattlesnakes anymore, (The shock is to bad) And I am sure it is from self immunization with it. so you are right about getting highly sensitive to venom. Thank you for your post and look foreword to any more post. Thanks Spanky
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RE: No I stopped about a year
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by Hotherps on April 14, 2003
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Hi Spanky, when I made reference to differences between the Indians of South America and venomous keepers, I had in mind the case of an individual that I know who had worked with and extracted venom for many years, but had become so highly sensitised to venom particles in the air that he could no longer enter the Herpetairum without becoming ill… (elapid venoms effected him badly) The Indians of the rainforest do not have to share the same air space as the snakes, that’s the difference.
I am not a medical doctor and so therefore am unable to give medical advice…..I would have personally thought that a change of antivenom would not make much difference if it is the actual venom that is the root of the problem….I would also guess that you might start to have problems with elapids if you were to be self immunizing with their venoms. I am sure that there are several people on this list that are better qualified to give a expert medical answers than I am able to…..
The areas that I am able to offer help are in the husbandry, handling and general care. I have kept snakes for over 30 years and I spent 14 years working in a zoo prior to starting this job in 1993. I am surrounded by Doctors and Professors that have many years of experience in venom research and I can pass one specific questions for you.
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RE: Just had to add
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by farmerjohn on July 10, 2013
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One question I have as I find the topic interesting and am no way a immunologist. For those who do perform self immunizations, are they performing a serial dilution of said venom so that its in the thousandths of a mil kinda thing or are they using straight venom, and how would using a serial dilution effect positively or negatively the formation of immunities or allergic reaction to it. also why are elapids prone to the greatest allergic sensitivity? (might have gotten that mixed up with the vipers)
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RE: LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF IMMUZATION OF SNAKE VENO
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by TheBlackMamba on July 14, 2013
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I honestly believe that if you use yourself as a ginny pig and self immunize that there is something mentally wrong with you and that you should be institutionalized until a medical professional determines that you are fit enough to re-enter society. This is not a proven science at all and at the end of the day you are doing nothing more than using yourself as a giant lab rat which is wreck less and completely f****** insane. I am more interested in type of person that would do something like this and the psychological profile they have. Do you do heroin ? Did you cut yourself as a child ? Did daddy "touch" you in odd places while you were growing up ? Did mommy have a lot of boyfriends ? Please, elaborate on the life event that made you lose complete respect for yourself and your body. I personally could never imagine doing something like this so I am really interested to know the type of tragedy I would have to suffer to lose that much respect for myself.
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RE: LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF IMMUZATION OF SNAKE VENO
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by farmerjohn on July 14, 2013
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Not debating that it is a bit out there. But unless someone looks at the topic from a scientific stand point there will never be any answers other than emotional responses like yours,,the your f***ing crazy kinda thing or you should be institutionalized.
there is not really a place for that in a debate of science there is either supporting facts for a argument either for or against something.
You are right it is a unproven topic and those doing it are making themselves into lab rats with no real way to quantify any benefits or long term damages only because I don't know anyone who uses the scientific method in this aspect.
my question that I asked was in a nut shell how do these people perform self immunizations? are they performing serial dilutions of some kind or are they just taking straight venom?
and how does this affect there immune system and the formation or non formation of antigens and the creation of compliment based response to the antigens to the protein?
I might be new here and new to looking at toxic snakes but I am not new to science so please either you can answer the questions in a civil manner backed up with facts and figures either supporting why its a great idea or why its a terrible idea based on scientifically based evidence.
if you cannot back up your position with facts and politely then you should probably keep your two sense to yourself.
PS I am aware my post is full of run on sentences and grammatical errors I have had a long day and am tired as hell and don't care so don't even try to be a grammar nazi because I'm not in the mood
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RE: LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF IMMUZATION OF SNAKE VENO
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by TheBlackMamba on July 14, 2013
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My post is not emotional and it is based on science and facts.
Fact: You do not know the consequences of self immunizing.
Fact: You are doing it anyway.
Fact: You are using yourself as a lab rat.
Fact: That is wreck less and f****** insane thing to do.
If you think that perhaps experimenting on yourself is a sane thing to do then perhaps my response is an emotional one. However, I don't think it is a sane thing to do, therefore, it is insane.
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