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Pressure Bandages for Viperid Bites?
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by taipan9 on July 31, 2009
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One more question....don't want to be a bother but this is one question I have NEVER gotten an answer to: Would immediate application of a pressure bandage be a good idea for envenomation by a Viperid with hemotoxic/cytotoxic venom?
I know it works wonders for envenomations from Elapids and other genera/species with primarily Neurotoxic venom, preventing the venom from traveling through the lymphatic system to the heart, brain, etc... But with a primarily hemotoxic or cytotoxic venom, would it be helpful or harmful? It seems it ought to help either way, but it also seems that if one allowed the venom to spread it may dissipate a bit and lessen the damage it does... would a pressure bandage prevent it from damaging any vital organs (obviously this depends on where one is bitten) or would it simply concentrate the venom in a smaller region of the body and increase the amount of localized damage?
Sorry if this has been answered or sounds somewhat amateur, but I have always wondered this and could not find anything about it in the search engine for "Experts" so I'm hoping some of the experts here can finally put my mind to rest... Thanks Again.
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RE: Pressure Bandages for Viperid Bites?
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by theemojohnm on July 31, 2009
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Thomas,
The application of pressure bandages for use in primarily neurotoxic species bites, keeps the venom from spreading rapidly through the lymph system.
Most "hemotoxic" viperids have venoms designed to break-down tissue. Restricting the spread of venom throughout the body (that would eventually be eliminated by the kidneys and liver) This intensifies the "tissue-destroying" process by not allowing the venom to spread through the lymph system.
Basically, if intense swelling and necrosis occur, you want the local site to be clear of residual venom, so that it can eventually repair itself
Of course, there are some primarily neurotoxic viperids too, but the majority are tissue-destructive in nature. One American example of a classic "tissue-destructive" species, is that of the rattlesnakes. Both the canebrake or timber rattlesnake and the Mojave rattlesnake, have shown significant venom variances throughout their range. Some of these "venom-variances" trigger neurotoxic reactions. So, in some cases, the application of pressure bandages may be useful. But, why risk the damage of more tissue by restricting venom flow? It would be almost impossible to guess whether you were having one of these unusual "neuro-toxic" reactions, as pressure bandages should be applied immediately.
Even after the initial venom-spread throughout the system, the residual fluid and damaged tissue, which usually remains for some time after, if the local bite site has swelled, should be free to "drain" naturally back into the system with minimum constriction. Of course, the sooner this "drain" begins, the better. Antivenin in some instances when used for necrotic bites, allows this “drain” to begin sooner, by reducing the swelling reaction.
While neuro-toxic venoms are less-tissue destructive, generally faster-acting, and more potentially dangerous systemically, the spread of venom from a primarily "neuro-toxic" bite wound, would give the bite victim more time to seek medical attention and antivenin.
The short answer is no, the use of any restriction from pressure bandages to restrict the flow of venom in primarily "tissue-destructive" viperid venoms is counter-productive, as it restricts the local damage to a small, concentrated area. The long answer depends on the species, as there are exceptions.
Hope this helps.
Take Care,
-John Mendrola.
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RE: Pressure Bandages for Viperid Bites?
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by LarryDFishel on July 31, 2009
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In most cases it's probably a bad idea for the reason you mentioned. In the U.S. you're very unlikely to die from the bite of most viperids. USUALLY, the most severe damage is local to the bite site and if you successfully slow the spread of the venom, you'll be making that damage worse.
If I were bitten by a very large rattlesnake AND I had reason to believe that it would take me half a day to get to a hospital AND I had a pressure bandage with me, I would probably give it a shot. I'm not recommending it or saying I know it would work. That's just what I think I would do.
On the other hand a few people have been dropped very quickly by rattlesnakes. But by the time you had an idea that that was going to happen, it's probably too late for a pressure bandage to make a difference.
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RE: Pressure Bandages for Viperid Bites?
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by theemojohnm on July 31, 2009
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Wow, it's late.
" While neuro-toxic venoms are less-tissue destructive, generally faster-acting, and more potentially dangerous systemically, the spread of venom from a primarily "neuro-toxic" bite wound, would give the bite victim more time to seek medical attention and antivenin."
MEANT:
While neuro-toxic venoms are less-tissue destructive, generally faster-acting, and more potentially dangerous systemically, RESTRICTING the spread of venom from a primarily "neuro-toxic" bite wound, would give the bite victim more time to seek medical attention and antivenin."
Take Care,
-John Mendrola
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RE: Pressure Bandages for Viperid Bites?
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by Cro on August 1, 2009
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The use of Compression Bandages for Viperid snake bites is being researched by several folks, including Dr. Sean Bush.
Depending on the results of that research, we might see some changes to what has been recommended in the past.
To work correctly, a compression bandage needs to be put into use very quickly following a bite.
This will concentrate the venom in a smaller area, where it has the potential to do much tissue damage, however, it might help prevent the fluid shift and resulting blood pressure drop / shock that often happens when someone has been bitten by a large rattlesnake. That change in volume of the circulatory system can kill someone very quickly.
The quicker that someone gets to a hospital, and starts receiving antivenin, the better. Antivenin does not reverse tissue damage that has already been done, it only prevents further damage.
If I were bitten by a large rattlesnake, I would probably use a compression bandage, and risk increased local tissue damage in trade for helping prevent the venom from causing a fluid shift / circulatory system volume change and resulting shock.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Pressure Bandages for Viperid Bites?
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by pictigaster1 on August 1, 2009
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I am sorry guys if you get a large atrox or several others bite you would not be able to use a pressure bandage you are not that tough.The pain alone would send you in to shock.I once told a Dr. not to touch my thumb after a bite and he did.I hit him in the forehead and do not remember at all.The swelling from a large rattler bite and the pain,is so intense that a pressure bandage would never work.I do not care who disagrees with me I speak from experience not conjecture .
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RE: Pressure Bandages for Viperid Bites?
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by Buzztail1 on August 1, 2009
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John M gave an excellent answer to this question which is almost exactly what Sean Bush told me at the Symposium on the Biology of the Rattlesnakes when I asked him.
Simply put:
Pressure Bandage for elapids - YES
Pressure Bandage for viperids - NO
Good question and great answers.
This is how this forum is supposed to work.
R/
Karl
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