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RE: hognose venom
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by BGF on November 13, 2009
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Immunotherapy and the weird machismo cult that has sprung up around self-injection are two completely separate matters.
Immunotherapy is built around reducing IgE production by stimulating very low level of IgG.
Self-injection is built around the belief that continued stimulation of the immune system has a beneficial effect. There is no scientific evidence to back this up.
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RE: hognose venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 13, 2009
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Is there any way a person doing si can do this with out being macho.I have wondered this a bit lately.Also if you are building IM from an injection of venom ,IgG is being built.That is in fact SI IS IT NOT.The reason is moot, the fact that immunity is being built in a way is a form of SI.I do not believe that this would make a persons system healthier but may make a bee sting survivable .The reason I say this is, as a world renownd venom researcher you would have a much better answer than some I may have herd.I am not trying to defend SI. I am truly interested in how venom works and what responces the body my have to continued exposure to these toxins I am not injecting them.I think you may be able to elaborate a bit more if you could It would be an honer to have you do so.
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RE: hognose venom
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by venominme on November 13, 2009
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I think the big deal is the “S”. That’s “Self”. The “I” part, immunizing, is not at all controversial or suspect. It is a legitimate science with plenty of well founded methods. The guys who are applying this medical treatment to snake venoms are the ones who are experimenting with very little in the way of documented human trials to follow. We know ancient Shaman did it, snake charmers did it, Charles Tanner did it, William Haast did it, Hershel Flowers and a few others. It has been done and is being done right now. It is still quite limited and rare. If you are being treated for a bee allergy and getting minute injections of bee venom from your doctor, you’re all good. If you are doing the same basic thing without the doctor, you’re a self experimenter and bear the wrath of those who disapprove. Check out this link to a book called “Who Goes First, Self Experimenting In Medicine”. Just go to this Amazon link and at least read the reviews of this book to see how this sort of thing has been done for years, has always been an ethical and controversial topic and a dirty little secret among researchers on the cutting edge. When you are on this side of it and look around, it really isn’t that much out of the ordinary. Some people just have to scratch the itch. Someone has to go first.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Goes-First-Self-Experimentation-Medicine/dp/0520212819
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RE: hognose venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 13, 2009
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Thanks Norman good stuff.I should leave this alone but I can not.I would like to hear what BGF has to say about this I have herd from every one else and now I am asking him directly.The reason has been well stated in other posts.As a child I was interested in all things venomous Bill Haast my hero did it.The fact that some people are doing little but calling it machismo sets me off.There is some solid science involved with the people I know who do this.I have herd some good stuff as well from those that oppose this as well .You might say I have a bee in my bonnet and must shake it out a little at a time.When I reach my goal and I do not know what it is I will stop asking other people.I would like to hear the science behind why it does not work not things like voodoo and macho until then I shall seek and absorb all I hear.Questions are ok its the answers we find hard to swallow.
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RE: hognose venom
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by venominme on November 13, 2009
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I was into this long before I ever told anybody or posted anything about it. My angle was always as a fan of Bill Haast that if anybody knocked it, they were knocking my hero, not me personally. But obviously, I am defending myself and a few of the SI guys that I have met who are really well intentioned and very misunderstood people. Some really good people. I am drawn to this like the guy in Close Encounters wants to go to that mountain. I can’t explain it, really. I just feel something is going to come of it. It’s one of the reasons I post about it when I see it mentioned, like if there is somebody looking for me, or if I can make a contribution somewhere, they can find me. I am extremely drawn to the medical and scientific applications and not really concerned at all about using SI to minimize snake bite. For me, it is basically not a factor in keeping venomous snakes, and it has nothing to do with machisimo.
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RE: hognose venom
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by AquaHerp on November 13, 2009
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All anyone has asked thus far is "What Solid Science"?
Who are you saying has "done little"? Simply because there are more important matters on the agenda?
In the grand scheme of things if someone wants to routinely envenomate themselves, go for it. If they want to tout it as pioneering sceince....hey, knock yourself out. If they want to promote it as valid science with proven results; Defend it and publish it. Simple.
DH
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RE: hognose venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 13, 2009
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Doug all I ment was that I was hopeing someone had some solid science and documentation on this. No one seems too and I have read alot.I know a bit about how you feel on this and soundly understand that facts are the key. I have none hell I am interested in any information I can get.The one or two key phrases are voodoo and macho .I am not doing this right now and am interested in what the experts say.I have been courteous and genuinely interested in all information I get.Is it wrong for me to wonder why those words always seem to come up.These are the top in there field includeing you.What I gather is this is dangerous and a mistake could cost your life and I think that my answers are in my face.I guess I just wanted some magic answer that closes all questions ....NOT......tHANKS TO ALL I WILL STOP NOW I DO NOT SEEM TO BE ABLE TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTION OR AM ASKING IT WRONG I DO NOT KNOW HELL I AM JUST AN OLD SNAKE HUNTER SNAKES ARE MY REAL LOVE NOT VENOM, THAT SHIT HURTS.
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RE: hognose venom
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by theemojohnm on November 13, 2009
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Dough is dead on. Could NOT have said it any better.
Nice little bit of fall forum fury. Back in town now. Nice to see everyone.
Take Care,
-John Mendrola.
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RE: hognose venom
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by venominme on November 13, 2009
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Since this is the most popular topic in the history of the website, to some it might be worth searching for and reading some of these. There are points to support both sides in some of these, whether you consider these scientific, not, or too old. Read and decide.
“Active immunization of man against venom of Australian tiger snake”
The American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene
“Complete and Spontaneous recovery from the bite of
a blue krait (Bungarus caeruleus)”
The American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene
“New techniques in antivenom production and active immunization against snake venoms”
Transactions of the Royal Society of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene
“Field trial of prophylatic inoculation of the habu (Trimeresurus flavoviridis) venom toxoid.”
Japanese Journal of Experimental Medicine
“Active Immunization Of A Human Against Naja Naja Venom”
Army Medical Research Laboratory Report No. 594
“Human Immunization, To Acquire Active Immunity Against Snake Venom”
Lee Moore
“Experiments on preventive inoculation of rattlesnake venom.”
The Journal of Physiology
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RE: hognose venom
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by BGF on November 14, 2009
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There are several elements to be kept separate
- what Haast did was out of medical necessity as he was in direct regular contact for snakes for which antivenoms were not available. He was milking a vast number of snakes, almost certainly more in sheer numberes and a greater diversity than anyone in history. Now-a-days there is no such medical need as there are a wide varity of antivenoms available. Indeed for most of the people self-immunising, a significant portion of their risk of envenomation comes when milking the snakes to obtain venom for self-immunisation. Circular logic at its finest. SO, people who are doing it today have no right to compare themselves with Haast.
- the injections for bees are not to raise protective levels of IgG but rather to use a quirk of the immune system to suppress the production of IgE. This requires very very little venom, just enough to trip the IgG producing cells into action
- in contrast, the production of high enough levels of IgG to be protective requires much higher levels of venom to be injected. Further, since the IgG producing cells become B-plasma cells, which are latent without regular exposure and take 3-4 days to come back on-line, this requires regular exposure.
There is another element, where Haast is remarkably well preserved so this has been taken as a benefit of the injections. Ignoring the vagaries of individual genetic variation and also how clean a life led. So they propose SI as having health benefits. This is absolutely supported by zero evidence and is a not a valid reason for SI. Even less valid than the already spurious need for protective levels of antibodies.
Cheers
B
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