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RE: Rattlesnake Non-rattling Study
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by Irishviper on February 6, 2010
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Charles
The study is an attempt to show once and for all the exhisting differences beyound morphological problems that populations of the four subspecies of lepidus show. What I found was that with C. l. lepidus, they do not rattle in the wild until you literally provoke them. Klauberi on the other hand go nuts just a soon as they sense your in the area. The odd thing for klauberi is that they would not go noticed by most animals/humans if they did not rattle. Talus slopes are very difficult to navigate in let alone see a klaub out in the open. Leps will sit out in the open, and often away from rock cover. My guess is that the leps don't rattle for the sake of not being detected as their numbers of predators are significantly higher. Hard to go into on this message board. try me at ChoctawVision@netscape.com
Alan
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RE: Rattlesnake Non-rattling Study
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by pictigaster1 on February 6, 2010
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I agree to a point .I have found many leps that the only way I did was there big mouths (there rattle.)But I have found many more that never rattled at all even when cought.I was wondering if different populations of klaubs acted different.I have never collected a klaub.But they have a vast amount of populations in small newmexico mountain ranges.And these populations are very different from each other like the little tularosa Klaubs that are 12 to 16 inches long with tiny minscule rattles,that have one of the longest klaub brumations,or the franklin mountains that have no sexual dimorphisum but do get large for a klaub.
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RE: Rattlesnake Non-rattling Study
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by Cro on February 6, 2010
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Alan, I would love to hear more of your work with lepidus, and hope you will share a link to the finished research here.
Randal, I have observed bushmasters at zoos and in private collections, and have noticed that the black headed bushmasters in particular will vibrate their tails when disturbed. I have also observed that behavior in Central American stenophrys.
Are you saying that you never observed that behavior in the ones you kept ? That would be quite interesting if that is the case, and would sure make me wonder why there would be a difference.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Rattlesnake Non-rattling Study
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by pictigaster1 on February 6, 2010
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There many places with leps and big horn sheep klaubs and big horn sheep.That is the only large grazer on the talus slopes.
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RE: Rattlesnake Non-rattling Study
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by lanceheads on February 7, 2010
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John, I believe you, I just never witnessed that behavior.
At one time, for a period of 10 years, I had in my private collection 22 Bushmasters, both muta's and stenophry's. Bred the stenophry's twice but I never saw either specie "tail wag" lol!
Randal
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RE: Rattlesnake Non-rattling Study
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by FSB on February 7, 2010
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So many interesting ideas, it's hard to know where to begin. There is obviously a wide range of first-hand experience and knowledge represented here that is not so much contradictory as it is based on widely-differing geographical areas and habitats reflecting the diversity of species found there. My field experience has been mostly confined to the east and southeast, meaning primarily C. horridus and adamanteus [and Sistrurus] as far as rattlesnakes go. My experience with other species, especially western taxa, has been restricted largely to captive specimens, except for a few memorable trips out west. If this phenomenom of rattlesnakes becoming quieter exists, I would think that it is not a uniform thing across all the Crotalus, but more pronounced in some species/populations than others, depending upon their distribution, history of contact with humans, habitats and behavioral predispositions. For example, C. horridus seem to have a number of qualities, including behavior, that set them apart from other members of the genus. C. horridus no doubt have a longer history of [European] human contact and persecution than any other species. They also live in very different habitats from say, the snakes Archie has encountered out in the wide-open spaces at the foot of the Plains. In such areas with minimal cover, it is not surprising that the snakes would seem far more defensive [psychotic]. The forested, rocky and often inaccessible microhabitats of C. horridus offer much more security. In the mostly NE parts of their range where they have been altogether exterminated, the dynamiting of entire dens was once a common practice, which would, of course, eliminate all of the snakes, quiet or not. The tendency to "lay low" and avoid detection would only benefit snakes in areas where they are more likely to be killed opportunistically, thus giving snakes of more placid disposition a better chance at survival... I would focus first on horridus in such a study.
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RE: Rattlesnake Non-rattling Study
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by FSB on February 7, 2010
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John, you raised enough interesting questions for another 4 or 5 threads... and I'm stuck here pecking out letters one at a time on this tiny virtual keypad with a plastic stylus, but I'll try to keep up [BTW, I did not get your email - maybe you could try sending it again]. I think I'll hold off for now on publicizing the idea I wrote you about - not for fear of flames {ideas, after all, have to pass through the furnace at some point to get case-hardened] but because it has to do with a different topic, the origin of the rattle, rather than its use [or non-use]. I will say that it was inspired largely by seeing our largest Lachesis muta briefly vibrate his tail one day while being misted, and it did make a very faint, raspy buzzing noise, not unlike a pigmy. I've only seen him do it the one time. To me, the rattle is simply the most unique, bizzare and amazing appendage developed by any snake, reptile or vertebrate, for that matter. I too think there's a lot more to it than meets the eye [or ear], and most of the theories I have heard about its purpose or origin amount more to assumption or guesswork than anything else, and I find them far from satisfying. I'd like to know more about the "grazing animals" theory, widely bandied about as fact. Where, or with whom, did this originate, and what sort of research backs it up? It seems to be a rather teleological assumption [i.e., rattlesnakes evolved a rattle in order to...], and doesn't explain how such a complex structure might arise in the first place, suggesting that it just appeared fully-blown like Athena emerging from the forehead of Zeus. It is more effect than cause-oriented, and, as you point out, fails to account for the presence of rattlesnakes in areas lacking large hoofed-stock, as well as fact that snakes in places such as the large grazing lands of Africa, teeming with ungulates, never developed such a device. I have also wondered if it might not have uses beyond being a warning device... [to be cont.]
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RE: Rattlesnake Non-rattling Study
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by FSB on February 7, 2010
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,,,such as intraspecies communication. It seems improbable to me that an animal could develop such an amazingly auditory device and then be deaf to it itself. In putting breeding groups of horridus together, I have often heard them clack their rattles in a purposeful way, when I am out of sight and when they are not moving around. Then, of course, what about those pigmies? As John points out, their little rattles are barely audible and indistinguishable from the buzzing of insects. I have to strain my ears to hear my little duskies, even when I'm standing right over them. Could it be possible that they use their rattles as an auditory caudal lure, fooling the insectivorous animals [frogs and lizards] that they often prey upon? I've never noticed such behavior in captives, and it would be most difficult to observe in the field, but it does seem that their little rattles are very limited when it comes to warning away larger animals.
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RE: Rattlesnake Non-rattling Study
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by lanceheads on February 7, 2010
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I forgot to mention, I have adult T.macrops, stegnegeri, and vogeli (adults) that "tail wag" in the early evening hrs, everyday, if I'm approaching their cages. It lasts for only a few hours though. This is not a type of caudal lure, they let me know they want to bite! And will not eat during this period. So it's a defensive behavior. The other specimens I have of trimeresurus, such as insularis, albolabris, ,popeiorum, fasciatus,trigoncephalus, purpureomaculatus, puniceus, and gumprechti, don't "tail wag" at anytime.
At least in my observance.
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