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RE: Pine snakes and rattlesnakes
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by snakeguy101 on November 14, 2010
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Rob, I am really going to bite my tongue for most of this because of how much I disagree so here is the polite version of what I wanted to say:
Pine snakes and rattlesnakes do not stress each other out because they are commonly found to be holed up in the same cramped conditions found in gopher tortoise burrows. Although they do not stay together year round, it is not likely for them to become stressed due to the presence of the others. I too provide enrichments for my snakes by hiding their food items, rearranging cage furniture, and adding scents from other animals such as a rabbit pelt and I fully believe that the snakes are cared for to the best degree that anyone would be capable of doing.
Moving on to your comment about the shoes, you should know that there was already a thread about this not long ago that was closed and another one was opened as a survey on this topic. Your comment should have been posted there and my stance on the matter can be seen there as well. Now I am not going to reopen this debate in this thread so if anyone wants to comment on it further, email me or post your comment in the other thread. There is no need for you to have reopened this conversation.
Finishing my reply, I would like to touch on your comment about the "Zoo Community". It really bothers me when I am working with AZA employees who hold themselves far above private keepers even though they are only just beginning to work with hots. Although I am sure that you are experienced with hots, you are still not above anyone here and if I recall you do not run an AZA accredited institution and have no say in what is right for the "Zoo community" as you put it. I was not in uniform or on zoo property when the picture was taken and despite the zoo's strict policy about taking pictures of employees and/or of the facilities, I am not breaking any of the rules by posting a completely unrelated picture of myself responsibly handling a rattlesnake on my own time and I have a really hard time imaging how this will affect their image.
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RE: Pine snakes and rattlesnakes
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by Rob_Carmichael on November 14, 2010
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Chad, I emailed you as I don't want this to turn into a public pissing match. I respectfully disagree and that's okay...and last I heard, a canebrake and timber are the same snake taxanomically.
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RE: Pine snakes and rattlesnakes
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by Nakita on November 14, 2010
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Rob,
You took the words right out of my mouth regarding Timber/Canebrake.
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RE: Pine snakes and rattlesnakes
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by Rob_Carmichael on November 16, 2010
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Chad/Chris...which of you two emailed me to my home email account (one says "Chad" but they are the exact comments that Chris just made so I have no idea)?...Chad, I thought it was you but now I'm thinking it was Chris. I just want to make sure I'm addressing my criticisms to the right person. Thanks
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RE: Pine snakes and rattlesnakes
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by theemojohnm on November 16, 2010
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"Although they do not stay together year round, it is not likely for them to become stressed due to the presence of the others."..
Completely ridiculous statement.
If the enclosure to too small, to where the animals are in forced contact with each other, with nowhere to get away from each other, even animals of the SAME SPECIES will stress each other in a captive setting.
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RE: Pine snakes and rattlesnakes
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by snakeguy101 on November 17, 2010
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I apologize for coming off so rough but I stand by what I said. I no longer have the snakes together but in the month or so that they were, there were no signs of stress. Like I said, one day I will have the time and resources to construct a nice mixed species enclosure.
I also recognize the different subspecies since I believe that DNA should not be the only factor used to determine the status of a species. Humans and Chimps share something like 98% of the same DNA so for subspecies, the difference in DNA is insurmountably small and there is no set definition for how much of a difference there must be to make the distinction for species, let alone subspecies. But again this is off topic and I apologize once more.
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RE: Pine snakes and rattlesnakes
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by AquaHerp on November 19, 2010
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I have kept multiple species together in a zoo setting. Only when the enclosure is designed as such. In these cases it is something such as eyelash vipers and dart-poison frogs, bushmasters and tree boas...etc. For the most part though, I keep the animals separate.
As an aside: Rob C. is well thought of through the "zoo community" and can speak for the community any time. AZA has a moratorium on accrediting nature centers, sanctuaries and such. This has been in effect for years. I have no doubt Rob's place would be in the fold if he so chose. Many facilities choose not to become accredited yet have outstanding collections and programs. Top-notch.
DH
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RE: Pine snakes and rattlesnakes
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by jared on November 19, 2010
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I agree with Doug on a couple points. I have housed a wide variety of herps in group settings and for some species it works and for others it does not (and even for those it is working for sometimes and amphib turns up missing). I understand with larger animals you will need more space and I think the area covered would be the biggest issue. I keep my animals in large groups with lots of space (usually 3 to 5 per breeding group, but I dont house multiple species displays currently) Also, for all intents and purposes I KNOW what DNA says regarding horridus, BUT since Virginia STILL LEGALLY recognizes two different subspecies I would also say that it is more than viable to argue seperate species since that is legally debateable. I can possess 5 C.horridus under my permit here in VA, but ZERO canebrakes and the officers do distinguish between the two animals. Seems to be ALOT of confusion recently regarding that law inparticular.
Take care
Jared
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RE: Pine snakes and rattlesnakes
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by AquaHerp on November 19, 2010
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Legality has nothing to do with taxonomy.
Crotalus horridus....period. Two variations perhaps, but a single species.
DH
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